Powering through perfectionism and anxiety to build confidence and launch digital products with Gill Andrews

[00:00:00] Rene: Hey everyone. Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed-out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing one-on-one work and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. I'm your host, Rene Morozowich. Let's go. 

[00:00:28] Hey everyone. So excited to be here today with Gill Andrews. She is a conversion copywriter and web consultant who helps small and medium businesses turn their underperforming websites into slick lead generating machines. How are you today? 

[00:00:43] Gill: Hi, fine. Thank you very much for having me. How are you? 

[00:00:46] Rene: I'm good.

[00:00:46] Yeah. I'm really excited to talk about your products. I know you have a couple products out now, and we talked briefly right before this, that these are the ones that you started with. So, uh, just tell me all about them. Tell me about your first products and what they were, and what you hoped that they would do, the audience and all that good stuff.

[00:01:05] Gill: All right. So my very first product was a book. Uh, usually one might say, okay, you should start small and, you know, taste the waters, um, whatever. Um, I decided to start with a book, or I should say the book decided to start with me. Okay. Because it was not my idea. That was really, really cool. So, um, just for everyone who is doubting right now, and a doubt like, should I do it?

[00:01:25] Should I do it? Not the you have it the easiest, it starts by itself. So with me, it was like I was posting on LinkedIn, um, three tips in a week, maybe four. And I was calling them, uh, website tip of the day and I started numbering them. So 1, 2, 3, 4, whatever website at, at some point people would say would see in my feed or in their feed website tip of the day 28.

[00:01:48] And they were like, man, where can I see the rest of the tips? And I'm like, I don't know, just scroll through my LinkedIn feed, whatever. And it's not that easy because, you know, they wanted to have it all in one place. And they started asking me, [00:02:00] and I'm a lazy bum, and I'm like, there's no way in hell I'm gonna, you know, go and put it in some place.

[00:02:06] You guys just go figure out how you wanna do it. I'm just posting my website tips of the day. And then by the website tip of the day number 80, it became regular messaging to me. Like, where can I find them? Where can I find them? Where can I find them? Can you put them at one place? And I'm like, okay, I think if people really want this, I need to think about it.

[00:02:25] So what would be the best place to put 200 words, uh, you know, tips. I didn't wanna put it on my website. And I was like, man, this seems really valuable. So why don't you write a book? I actually don't even, don't remember. Maybe somebody else told me. Just, you know, put them in a book. I have no idea. But the thing is, it found me.

[00:02:43] So it's kind of developed, um, through the activities that I was doing otherwise, uh, social media marketing. And I was like, okay, so I'm writing a book and the thing is, because I'm a lazy bum, I didn't wanna stare, uh, at a white page. Now imagine like you need to start writing a book from scratch. That is bloody terrifying.

[00:03:01] I don't know how people do this. Maybe they're carrying this book with them for years, you know, something. But because for me, if you tell me, know, write a book without having those chapters of the book already somewhere existing in some raw form. I would be like, no way in hell just go do it yourself.

[00:03:16] So I actually then with half of my brain, you know, another half sleeping, or I don't know, caffeinated, I started just copy pasting everything in Word from LinkedIn. And by then I already had more than a hundred because the book's name is, um, Make Your Website Work, 100 Copy and Design Tips for Smart Business Owners.

[00:03:35] But once I started writing the book, I was ready more than a hundred, which was good because not every tip was, uh, book worthy. You know, some tips were overlapping, sometimes were a bit too wordy, and I decided to do it in very small chapters.

[00:03:47] And I started working on it and I hired an, uh, proofreader, I think, uh, who helped me proofread it. I didn't need any editor because it was not fiction. It was literally marketing [00:04:00] advice. Every chapter is new, so it's like, doesn't matter in which order you read them. So there no character except of myself, where I sometimes tell personal stories from my personal life, client life, and uh, what I did. I mean, for me, what, um, I also thought, okay, why should people buy it at all?

[00:04:13] Well, first of all, people should buy it because they asked for it. Well, yes, it was not my idea, so go buy it. But otherwise, if they wouldn't have asked for it, why would they buy it? So for me it was like, I wouldn't release a product. Maybe it's just me. Don't take it like as I take it with a grain of salt.

[00:04:29] Yeah. I wouldn't release it if I see that somebody else is doing it better. Mm-hmm, uh, or it is like something similar to whatever somebody else is doing. Maybe it's not the right attitude because they say the personality and the way you deliver the same message also matters. But I'm, I'm not like this.

[00:04:44] To me, it's like, man, and it needs to be something different. And, uh, I can honestly say to me, this book is very different. You won't find a book like this anywhere because usually books on copywriting and design, they have a lot of theory and you're like, oh my God. But this is all super, super practical.

[00:05:00] You can take any chapter there and start applying, uh, only on the website even if you do not know anything about copywriting or design. How is it possible? Because it's really small scope of every chapter, and I also talk about the reasoning behind those tips and you will be so surprised how common sense it is.

[00:05:17] But as they say, common sense is not so common. So you'll discover that. Yes. Oh, there as well. And I have comments. It's also an Amazon available. A lot of comments that's say there is actually so simple, but you don't realize it till you read it and you read it. You're like, man, why didn't I know it earlier?

[00:05:32] You know? So this, this kind of advice that everybody understands, but even professional copywriters and designers who get paid for their work also can learn something because they just, you know, sometimes forget the basics or maybe skip, uh, that chapter or lecture in the university if they, you know, studied it, whatever, but just they're not doing it.

[00:05:50] Because I see it on websites and it came from experience, it came from field experience and nobody's writing about stuff like that. So I, so for me, just to summarize, it [00:06:00] was like, first of all, I already had an audience. I was super lucky. Mm-hmm. Second of all, I already had material that I worked for one and a half years.

[00:06:07] I was just posting, you know, couple of times a week. So I didn't have any time pressure. I, I wasn't like, okay, book, you know, I need to do it by this and this day because this way I wouldn't have finished anything. And three, yeah. And three, I was convinced that it's something super valuable. Mm-hmm, this is also important because I think with my now product that I hope to release. I've been working on this like on and off for two years. This bloody online course that refuses to get born for the reason because there's no crowd of people saying, we want with, we want this. Mm-hmm, I just think they need it because so many people get it wrong, you know? Mm-hmm. and I'm like, um, it's about finding a value proposition and building the foundation for your messaging.

[00:06:50] And it is less practical in the sense of that you need as a consumer of this course, this is way less fun than the book. It is, first of all, longer. Second of all, you need to do the work. And I'm like thinking, do people really wanna do the work or, or would they like to have some flashy thing that they pay money for, feel good about it and then don't do, you know?

[00:07:10] And then, but because they think it's easy, you know how I'm gonna market it and there's just so much because I don't have this crowd of cheerleaders saying, yeah, bring it. Bring it. We want it. Mm-hmm, and this is hard, so this is a different way, but I'm still still powering through it because a part of me believes that is, um, useful.

[00:07:28] And the other part just wants to see what happens. And I'm just like, why don't we do it? Because like otherwise I would be sitting there and, um, you know, in my daydreaming it's like being afraid and anxious and I always think it's better to do and regret it than not to do and regret it. Mm-hmm. And I would learn something.

[00:07:43] I'm thinking, okay, thanks. Okay, you, we will learn something about your audience and, and whatever. But it's again, super different course. Once again, it's nothing that, um, you, you've seen anywhere because it's just really very thorough. And it shows you things. I mean, if you know it, so many copywriters don't know.

[00:07:58] It will be very [00:08:00] also, um, important for copywriters because this is the process I use with my clients, uh mm-hmm, when I start writing copy, it's like discovery process, how to uncover their messaging before we even talk about words, you know? Mm-hmm, and you also will see how much work goes into this preparation steps.

[00:08:15] But in my process, copywriting, writing words, actually step number six, could we believe it? Mm-hmm. Because people think, okay, copywriting, so couple just go, here's your brief. Right? It's not how it works. Mm-hmm, and nobody gives me briefs. I get briefs from people. I, uh, even if they sent me something that they think is a brief, I'm like, okay, very nice.

[00:08:31] Thank you very much here. The additional questions, you know, right? Because, um, as a client, especially if you're not copywriter yourself, you don't have a process. You do not know what we need to create proper messaging and mm-hmm, you have to, as a copywriter, you have to know what you need and need. You need to ask the questions, you need to analyze them properly and so on and so forth, but okay.

[00:08:51] I already like, you know, took some kinda offroad here. 

[00:08:55] Rene: We jumped ahead. It's okay. 

[00:08:56] Gill: So we talked about the book then I, there was the first product and then we talked about, about my unborn product. Mm-hmm. What happened in between were two super simple things that I think everybody can do. People who are listening to this.

[00:09:08] If you have been blogging, just blogging, you know, you already have that product sitting somewhere on your website. Mm-hmm. So what happened is, I mean, I started creating checklists in the very beginning before I went. Uh, I started getting like, regular, uh, work and started, uh, having income that would pay the bills as well.

[00:09:27] For two years I was, uh, blogging really like hardcore SEO oriented. Mm-hmm. And the things I did were checklist. So I have website, the ultimate website checklist, I think. Mm-hmm, uh, 200 plus features of a successful website. And it, it's done also in this very, very short form of short sentences and check marks.

[00:09:48] It's huge, but it's extremely easy to digest because there are no fluff. There's like zero, zero fluff. And then I had like different, uh, checklists. Fair freelancer homepage checklist, [00:10:00] credibility checklist. Oh, I forgot, whatever else checklist, at least five checklists over there. And, um, at some point, man, if I, if I even remember the reason, I don't remember.

[00:10:11] At some point I took a course about this in the sense of my first digital product or so, something like this, I forgot the name. I take, I take very few courses. I think up till now, I, I took three courses overall from the same person. Um, because I didn't feel the necessity of let's put like this. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:27] There's nothing wrong with taking courses, but I just didn't feel like I need to. But product creation, I think this is my weak spot in the sense of that I have a lot of blocks sitting in my mind. Mm mm-hmm. and this course really removed it because it showed me that you can take a very useful thing when I was sitting on your blog and just say, okay, now it costs you money to get it.

[00:10:50] And, uh, for my checklist, I think, oh yeah, it was website content checklist. This is so cool. I mean, I'm so proud of it. It's so amazing. I just, if, if it was the person, I would hug this list. This is. I, I'll print it out and hug it because I, I really love it. So much work went into it and it's just so useful.

[00:11:07] And it, uh, goes through nine most important areas of your website. It's like eight pages and also one section is about, um, every page, what do you need to do on every page? Mm-hmm. And it's so helpful for somebody who's like, okay, I need to create a website. I'm not a copywriter. I have no bloody clue what I'm doing, you know?

[00:11:24] Mm-hmm. So you take this checklist and you say, okay, so on the home page, this, this, this needs to be there, this, this, this shouldn't be there, this is this optional. I need to keep this, these things in mind. And it was sitting there for free. And it was my lead magnet because I would create this checklist.

[00:11:38] I would make them rank in search, not super-duper big, no 10,000 searches or whatever. Just like every keyword had like, I don't know, a hundred searches a month or something. But still, it gets me, um, subscribe as my list is growing without me doing anything. I stopped blogging, like three years ago, I think.

[00:11:52] Mm-hmm, and then I was like, okay, so I'm gonna turn this checklist into a product because I'm a lazy bum, [00:12:00] but I'm a lazy bum who loves planning, who doesn't do anything without, like thinking about what is it in for me in the future. Mm-hmm, how can I proceed being a lazy bum, you know, with this particular action, this action needs to feed into my philosophy of being a lazy bum.

[00:12:16] So, uh, with the checklist, the thing is I do email marketing. I have a newsletter that I've had had for six years. I think I really love writing it. It's like connects me to my audience. It gives me so many new ideas for blog posts. It shows me what resonates. It, of course, spreads my name through the world.

[00:12:32] And the thing is that this course that is my future child. Mm-hmm. Uh, at some point I would like to also market it through my email list. And the thing is, if you get a person on your email list to open their wallet a little bit, you know, and this checklist is like 4.49 and another checklist is 2.49. It already removes their barrier in the head.

[00:12:54] You can think about it. Maybe you also have this behavior when you go shopping for clothes, and it takes a lot of time till you decide that you would like to try something on because you're like lazy. You're just still dressed and you're like, I need to go to change. Mm-hmm. But once you start, you just can't stop.

[00:13:10] That's the same, same thing. Mm-hmm. with people paying you money. The very first hurdle to take is for them to open their wallets at least once. And imagine you have an email funnel. Okay. I send in the like emails every week. I don't send many promotional emails. I really would like, to me it's like, you know, like with friends, because I believe I deliver value, a lot of value also for free.

[00:13:30] Mm-hmm. And there are people on my list who never bought my book sitting there for years, whatever but they enjoy free advice. They can totally do it. There are people who were not on my list and you know, the very first time they come and they already buy something. So this also happens. And in this final, right now, I have this suggest.

[00:13:45] I suggest my paid list, of course. And I market my book as well. And I notice because I had a knee surgery where for one month I was not doing anything and I saw how the sales tanked. And so to me it was an indicator. This is important vehicle, this is important. [00:14:00] You know, part of my marketing machine.

[00:14:02] Mm-hmm. And, uh, what I would like to do in the future, that I would also market my course through my email funnel. They are on my list because of free lead magnets. I still have free lead magnets. My main lead magnets that rank the best. I decided to leave it free. It's better because to me it's important that the list is growing.

[00:14:17] It has a healthy growth, right? Mm-hmm. But this website checklist, it did, it doesn't have that many visitors from search. I sell it mainly through email marketing and by sell I don't mean that I'm gonna get you know super rich through it, right? I have, I think one, one digital project a day, a month. I'm just telling you people how it is because, uh, the traffic, uh, to these particular pages is not that much from search.

[00:14:40] And, uh, uh, when I market it, it's still not everybody buys. I have a conversion rate on the page. I think it's 4%. So you can imagine from a hundred percent it's four people buy by. And, uh, but to me, this is not the thing. This is, I'm, I'm doing this to get people accustomed to giving me money. Mm-hmm. So the moment I have my course, which I will market like not like a lazy bum, like a very professional, you know, hard walking, working in person, I really will put a lot of effort into this. Mm-hmm, because it's not 4.49 anymore. You know, it will be a hundred plus plus dollars and to me it would be like one sale would be, uh, worth a lot. But I already like, you know, train people to pay me money.

[00:15:21] And people who will be listening it are probably my subscribers. So, you'll now know that's not, I mean, not a problem, guys or girls or folks, whatever. Um, I believe I deliver a value, really. And, uh, if you don't believe this, this is totally fine. I mean, that's your opinion. I'm not gonna force you, uh, anything.

[00:15:37] But also this is the thing. This is how we buy. I mean, and as a marketer, you need to know people's psychology. Mm-hmm, you have to do it. I would be really, really bad marketer if I didn't know this. If I would be just throwing pasta. What are they throwing on the wall? Spaghetti on the wall and, and oh, like on the, let's see what sticks.

[00:15:52] And see what sticks. Yeah. 

[00:15:54] So with these digital products, but coming back to listeners who are listening to this, this is really like in the store. I said, [00:16:00] you need to remove for yourself the, the block from your mind in doing this digital product. Why it, it really, I think for you, for people who are listening to this, it feels like a lot of work because you don't know the technical side of it and everybody's intimidated.

[00:16:13] Mm-hmm. with the technical side. And I must say I have a technical background. I'm a software engineer in my previous life, and I was intimidated. I was like, I don't wanna, there's a lot of pieces. Yeah. But actually it was just one plugin. And then you connected to PayPal and it, I think it was a day it's, it was not day in the sense of eight hours, but it's just like, whatever I did through the day, it was enough.

[00:16:36] Right? So you just need this PDF. What actually is more important? I mean, not, okay. It's equally important. Let's put like this, how you frame it, because. You need to tell people why they should give you money. That's the thing. Mm-hmm, and for me, I, now, I'm experimenting, I had a very long version of this list because it was like bloody long with super fancy navigation and some parts on the navigation you would see icons of chapters and then short summary for chapter and chapters that were premium had this crown on top of that.

[00:17:07] This is like prototypical way to mark something as premium feature. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I don't know. Okay. It had, let's say conversion rate of 3.9%. Now I made the page shorter where I removed all the chapters except of the first one, and I did it like really standard marketing or landing page style where I said, okay, this is what you get, you know, checkpoints, benefits, 1, 2, 3, 4. Here's your sample chapter.

[00:17:32] Either you're buying it or you're buying it. You are not buying. But there is no more of this long story of right, where you can see more chapters. So I'm, I'm curious to see how this will perform. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, so I'm still experimenting with this because it's, it's, I think one should always experiment if one can, but the, the main thing, this plugin, it is really not complicated.

[00:17:52] Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. So it is so simple to use and I was like, oh my God. And I was afraid of this. Mm-hmm, I should have started [00:18:00] long ago. So whoever really, really feels this desire to do it, but um, was like, man, and this is too complicated, I'm telling you. You think it's complicated, actually, it's not.

[00:18:10] Just take a day, look at, into this plugin. And you would be so surprised and most of all, you would be very proud of yourself will be relieved and you will. Yes. You know, every time and I get an email and it says, new sale. I'm like, yes. Yes. It's like super little. I mean, nobody's getting rich from this.

[00:18:24] Mm-hmm. But it's like, you know, for me it was like a proof of concept and this and software. Mm-hmm. We would do, you know, when you have like a big project, you take a very small scope that is like similar to the major scope, like will my idea or approach work? And for me it was proof of concept. So now I know, okay, I can create so many product, as many products I like and whatever, but for now I'm concentrating on this course. But this, this, this, uh, hurdle was removed. Now I know how to do it. The same with the book, whoever wants to create the book. Super scary. Yes, I know. Uh, technical stuff. How am I gonna do Amazon? Oh God, I, yes, it was super, they was seriously bad.

[00:18:59] Uh, really, I mean, I pity everybody who is going through it. I wanted to hire someone and I thought this person knows what they were doing, but they were not. I mean, it was awful. I had to do it myself, and I managed to do it. And I'm so happy because right now I have a script. I'm in the script in the sense of programmatic out.

[00:19:15] you know, whatever, not script as in video script, but a program. Yeah. Where I can just feed my new manuscript. Oh, yeah. Because I, I actually plan to write the second part of the book as well, so hundred more tips because I kept posting on LinkedIn and it's already 200 something, 243 tips, whatever. And I already selected the ones I would like to have.

[00:19:34] Um, so I know, wow. It'll be so fast. So, yeah, it's always like with the first thing, it's always super hard and you're like, man, I don't know what I'm doing, but just, you know take it step by step for me. Mm-hmm, step by step looks like a huge Excel sheet that colors itself. Ooh. I just do some, yes. Some, um, some conditional format by formatting, by color.

[00:19:54] And I write, uh, all the tasks and then all the sub-tasks, and then I put how [00:20:00] many percent is done. And it colors itself automatically. So 50, 25% is super red, you know? Mm-hmm. like 50% is a bit yellowish. 75 is like orange and a hundred is like you're done. Green. Green, yes. Yeah. And then it also automatically calculates how much percent wise it's done.

[00:20:15] Complete project, you know, so even the small, like teeny tiny task you did today with one brain cell that was not too tired, it still gives you, you know, now you are like eight 40. Before in the morning you were 48.5%. Mm-hmm. Done. Now you're 48.6% done and you're like, okay, this day was not for nothing.

[00:20:34] And I mean, this gives me a motivation to continue with these huge projects and really thanks to my background in IT consulting and software engineering because, you know, project, project management and you know, staying, uh, motivated through the project, knowing wh where you are in the project, which is super important because if you're just, even if you like have something written by hand, it's not the same to me at least, right?

[00:20:58] Mm-hmm, I need this, um, very objective thing because, you know, machine Excel sheet and, uh, this is what keeps me going because I can't imagine, especially if you've never done it before, it is so intimidating, but so is everything in life. People, you know, just, yes. I think the idea is also what if it tanks?

[00:21:16] Mm-hmm. What if it doesn't? Imagine this. Yes. Yes. What if it doesn't tank? Mm-hmm. Um, ok. But okay. If you, if you really love imagining, um, worst case scenarios, imagine it tanks end, you know, now you, you learn something because to me, yes. I mean, what happened was I also had, it was not about digital product, but some kind of my, my own internal, um, what's the name?

[00:21:37] Marketing? Small Marketing. Mm-hmm. When I was marketing small offers, it did tank. And I learned from this that I actually, what I learned was like, uh, that the offers were not properly tailored to the audience. You know, I did it how it was comfortable for me to, you know, price them and scope them. But then I just said, man, that doesn't make any sense.

[00:21:54] But it was already, this promotion was over, but it's like, this is not helpful to people. It was like half baked [00:22:00] things, you know? This one was too small, the other one was too big. And although I know people, there was so much traffic to these pages and everybody was so interested by nobody bought. Why?

[00:22:09] Because it was not useful in this form that I created it. Mm-hmm. And I learned something. Thank God I didn't invest. It was really my, the two day effort maybe that I created two lending pages and an email funnel. But, um, I was like, man, you'll learn something and even, you know, these errors, they teaches you that errors are not bad.

[00:22:27] It's like not doing anything is bad. This is not bad, right? Mm-hmm, because when you sit there, then you do not have any chance of success and coming forward, because whoever thinks of creating, uh, products they're thinking about passive income. You know, they're day dreaming about waking up, looking at their dashboard and saying, yes, $10,000 this month you earned in your sleep. This is my personal. 

[00:22:51] Rene: Yes. Yeah. But it takes a while to get there. You don't just start there.

[00:22:54] Gill: Yes. I mean, if you do not do the first step, um, yes. You know, right now I also, I also track all my progress in Excel where with the products. How many products, you know, I sell on in one month, how many visitors, what was the conversion rate at this particular month?

[00:23:07] And, uh, to me it's important because I need to analyze things, you know? Mm-hmm. Right now is, everything is pretty, I mean, the same, there are no outliers, so I can't say, okay, something interesting happened or whatever. So it's pretty stable. It's nice to know. Okay. You know, for example, if your page converts at 4%, you know, okay, just get more traffic.

[00:23:23] You get more sales, for example. Right. 

[00:23:25] This is the thing coming back to my motivational speech on everybody who is listening. Just do it. Literally, just freaking do it. Mm-hmm, uh, I know it sounds hard. Oh, you know, Gill, you already done it and, but that's the secret. This is the only secret. Forget you can say to yourself, okay, dear mind, dear anxiety, I do not care what you're telling me.

[00:23:47] Rene: I'm too busy for this. 

[00:23:48] Gill: I have to do it. Yes. Yeah. Talk to the head. Mm-hmm, you know, yes, right? It's like, Because to me, I mean, it was my personal experience that the things that make me afraid somehow now I'm addicted [00:24:00] to doing things that make me afraid. Of course, not like, you know, jumping off the building or riding a motorbike, although I would like to ride a motorbike at some point.

[00:24:09] I'm a recovering perfectionist, uh, due to really problematic childhood, I had this, it has to be perfect. It no, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be per and especially perfect. Yours is not perfect for somebody else.

[00:24:21] So perfect is super subjective thing. I mean, what are you talking about? So there's no such thing as perfect. Right. You know? Right. For you it's perfect, but for everybody else, it's like half of the thing that you just did, nobody cares about. Mm-hmm. It's like there are things that you people care about and there are things only you care about.

[00:24:36] You need to know the distinction, you know? So I was already, still am. No, probably was. I'm already much better now. Um, and I was like, I need to do this. I have to do it. And it was so scary, but afterwards it's like, wow, you know, this feeling of this, like it's, I got a kick off whatever substance that was mm-hmm.

[00:24:55] that was produced by my brain and I was like, I need to do it again. What else do I say? Let's go do it in public. You know, something like this. And, um, yeah. And then, and it's just makes you a different person because the thing is mm-hmm. As a, as a solopreneur, actually as a person living, living in this life, whatever you do, if it's uh, uh, work related, if it's even not your personal life related, it changes you.

[00:25:18] You grow. Mm-hmm, you grow with it, you know, or, or, or whatever you change, right? It changes you. Yes. You, even if it's a little bit, you know, you learn something new. You understand more about yourself, about how world works or doesn't, or how other people work, and it is important to do things that scare you.

[00:25:36] So another, another piece of wisdom is like, do more things that scare you because what the worst that would happen? Mm-hmm. Okay. Even if they laughed at me and I would've said, okay, I suck is, what can I tell you? I suck. I suck at this. I know I suck at it. So what? Because seriously, so what? There are so few things in life that are important. As my late, uh, great-uncle used to say, I love this phrase, uh, I [00:26:00] wish you health and everything else we'll buy. It was his standard greeting to my birthday in New Year, and he was like, I wish you health and everything else we'll buy. He was very rich, and the thing was, he's so right because except of health and you know, just being alive and being healthy, everything else is really not that important.

[00:26:20] Mm-hmm. So definitely, especially if we're talking about creating digital products. 

[00:26:23] Take something small. You are not planning to get rich, you're just planning to remove the barrier mm-hmm from your head. And, uh, you're doing it for yourself as well, for your business, not only in the sense of money, but also in the sense of growth, you know? Yes. Yeah. And strategy. And it is super important.

[00:26:40] Rene: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I love that you created things that you had already been creating. Like it kind of just came out of that. Like, I think that's really valuable for people to, you know, say like, I don't have to start from scratch. I don't have to start from the beginning. I can let people tell me what they want.

[00:26:54] And I think that's great. So tell me more about the course. What is kind of, I, I know you said it's like, it's really you're creating it because it's really important for people. And I like how you said that you use, you're using frameworks that you use in your own business to create it. So what is, I guess, the future of that?

[00:27:11] How long until it's launched? What are your barriers in the way? You know, and then how are you gonna market that afterwards? Mm-hmm, because it's not something that people have been asking for. 

[00:27:20] Gill: Yeah, exactly. So it's called Business Soul Searching. Again, a name that I did not choose. Two separate clients who do not know each other, referred to it because it's in my discovery process.

[00:27:30] That's the questionnaire that I send them before I start writing any words to learn more about their audience, business model and uncover their value proposition and what we will be focusing on because, uh, in this process, I also analyze the websites of their competitors. Two separate people sitting in the separate parts of the world used the same phrase, business soul searching.

[00:27:51] And the thing is, what happens is, um, I take people, I make people answer questions. If I ask you for example, who, um, what is your unique, [00:28:00] uh, no, this is, this comes later, but it's like, um, who are you selling to? And you're like, yeah, small businesses in the US and Canada. And I'm like, man, you can totally say to everybody, it's kind of the same thing. We need to really to talk about this.

[00:28:13] So with every question, and I think there are approximately 18, I'm not sure about 17, 18. Of course, every time question is custom, customized, but these questions are always there, right? And it's already helps you a lot. And, uh, so I'm like, I, I'm showing people, okay, this is the question and I'm telling you these are bad answers, no answer like this because, or don't create an answer that has these, you know mm-hmm.

[00:28:36] things. Love that. Uh, your good answer to this question looks like this. Because, you know, and the thing is, it uncovers your un uh, unique value proposition. It has a question. What's your unique value proposition in the sense of why should people, no, it doesn't say, what's your unique value proposition? It says that in a more natural way, in the sense, so why should people buy from you?

[00:28:54] Because unique value proposition is marketing, speak. Uh, and not everybody, not every business owner will understand. Maybe they're new, maybe, I don't know. They have nothing to do with marketing. There's indeed owner and marketing. Somebody else is doing it. So it's like why should people buy from you and you're not competitor?

[00:29:08] And that's a question I think somewhere like 12. Because the thing is, if I ask you right away, you will not be able to answer it, especially if you're confused about your messaging. So all these questions before that, they are guiding you towards this answer. And while you were answering those questions, while you were learning, how to answer them properly, how to be super specific.

[00:29:27] What do you think about it? What do you know disregard? It also talks about defining your target audience. We are not doing the stupid profiling with a picture. It's like, this is Kate, she's 23 and a baby, and she lives in suburbs of New York and she drives a Volvo. Who cares? Oh, and she spends her free time on Instagram.

[00:29:44] Does it matter for you that she has a baby and drives a Volvo? The thing is, with this, sorry, I'm saying I'm really, I dunno why there's so many strong words coming. 

[00:29:54] Rene: You're passionate. I like it. 

[00:29:56] Gill: Yeah, because this is, this is like, really gets to me. Mm-hmm, this is so stupid, [00:30:00] guys. So. Cause you introduce so much, so much bias.

[00:30:03] I mean, it's like, how does it matter, does it influence her decision that she has a baby? Maybe it does. If you, if you are, uh, selling products for babies, it does. But if you are selling, uh, uh, let's say an, um, digital marketing tool, software for business owners who are just starting business and Kate wants to start her crochet business or whatever, it doesn't matter that she, she has a baby.

[00:30:23] It doesn't matter that she drives a Volvo. It doesn't matter. You know, like mm-hmm, five out of 10 things you listed do not matter, but you forgot to list the other eight that are super important but do matter. So I really, I really like teach them how to define an audience properly so you know what to include into your marketing messages and what don't.

[00:30:40] And then we come to the value proposition. And then we, I also teach, this is so cool, I think No, I've, I've never seen this done actually, how to properly compare your website to, uh, competitor websites. Oh. Because people don't shop in a vacuum. They don't hire in the vacuum. They will always open couple of tabs next to yours.

[00:30:57] And the trick is that you don't need to be the best in the world. You just need to be the best among your niche. I mean, seriously. Seriously. You know, maybe it's about the price as well. You already have your competitors. You're not com. Even if you are starting, let's say you're just starting your business as a coach and you think that you compete with the names that have been there for like 10 years, you, this is not your competition.

[00:31:16] Forget about this, because a person who has the money to hire them, they will hire them. They won't even look at your website. Nobody cares about your messaging if you don't have the credentials they have, forget it. Mm-hmm. So you need to compare yourself to, um, websites that you know, um, really will in your be among those tabs mm-hmm.

[00:31:33] And you know how to uncover which ones those be or will be, or then how I have like this, then I give them a table where they need to go and check all the things to compare design wise. Also something important, although we talk a lot about messaging, this is the only time we talk about design because design influences, uh, a lot of, like, 90% of like first impression comes from design.

[00:31:57] Mm-hmm. So if your design is really bad or giving this vibe of [00:32:00] cheap and, uh, scammy, they won't even read. Once I saw a website I so regret I didn't save it. It was the most spammy looking website you'll see with orange, oh, no, no, no, sorry. Red borders like this. Oh, oh. You know, big letters flashing, three exclamation marks.

[00:32:16] But it was very good messaging and I was like, oh my God, how did you manage to do this? You know? Yes. And it was some competitive niche and we were analyzing websites with my client and I was like, I cannot believe it. I really was like, man, maybe I should write them an email because, but okay, it's some competitor of my client.

[00:32:30] I can't do it. Of course, I didn't do it, but it was really such a pity because usually you, you see it completely vice versa. You see like a very good design. It's like really 95, 99% of the cases, because the themes, they come, you know, all templates, they look pretty shiny. Yeah. People don't know how to use them.

[00:32:46] They use them badly in the sense of that so many images that have no value, it looks shiny for a second, and then people start reading. It's like, oh no, this is like we, we, we deliver solutions that, uh, you every need. And you're like, oh my God, you don't.

[00:33:02] Rene: Synergistic. All those buzzwords. Yeah. 

[00:33:04] Gill: What was this?

[00:33:04] Uh, something reimagined, something is always reimagined. You know, skincare reimagined. Software reimagined. Your taxes reimagined. I know they reimagine like bloody everything, but, okay. Coming back to what I was saying, so how to compare your website. Probably in there we talk about design, what design has to do actually.

[00:33:21] So, you know, even if you don't have a website, it will give you a really good start because they're like, you are like, oh look, my competitors don't have this part. You know? Mm-hmm, my competitors really are doing poorly. The testimonials. They're doing like bad design for testimonials. Yes. And you're like, man, if I only, if only I will follow Gill's advice on how to create a, uh, not to create, but because you're not creating them.

[00:33:43] You're asking them from the clients, but how to style your testimonial and how also, sometimes you need to, uh, ask your a client's permission to rewrite it in a more succinct way because some clients are so excited they will, you know, send you War and Peace kind of novel, and you're like, what the hell I'm supposed to do with it?

[00:33:59] And then you [00:34:00] end up not using it because nobody's gonna read it. Mm-hmm. And, um, you actually, it's totally fine to just write, uh, to client and say, can, is it okay if I change it like this because blah, blah, blah, and nobody have objected to my case, but you need to know this. You need to know. Mm-hmm. The, um, like three or four, um, parts of really, uh, trustworthy testimonial because your per your, uh, competitors, they may even have flashy testimonial, but the moment you start reading, you understand this testimonials says nothing.

[00:34:27] It says, mm-hmm, uh, Jack did a good job. He's great, but what did Jack do? Mon lawn. Yeah. You know, your lawn or whatever. Did shopping for grandma. What did the hell did he do? How? How should a prospect recognize themselves? And you know, it also sounds super fake. You think, okay, this is such a great testimonial. Look Jack was great.

[00:34:44] He did great job. But if you don't say what Jack did, you know, and how. This is worse, nothing. But a lot of people don't know this. So this is also about that. How do I compare your website and at the end, I don't leave people hanging, I'm not, okay. So you answer the questions, go do something with it. Yeah.

[00:35:00] I'm like, okay people, so you probably are wondering what to do with this. And I tell them, okay, on every page you make sure that the answers from questions one to four plus six and seven appear on your sales pages. You pay attention that you messaging, or the problems you identified, or objections, blah, blah, blah.

[00:35:18] Appear from your answers and questions, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So the moment they start creating the pages, they already have their own words that they can put, start putting on, on a page. This is another secret that probably copywriters, some copywriters say, but people think they're joking. Sometimes client write copyright copy themselves, they pay us mm-hmm.

[00:35:39] But then they kind of partly write the copy themselves. It happened to me many times that I would copy paste phrases from my client's answers, uh, through these questionnaires. The moment you have the answers to this question, you are not starting with the white page. You think you are because you're like me.

[00:35:56] I didn't write anything from my website, but it's not at all the case. [00:36:00] In this course, you will also get three templates for freelancer, uh, homepage. Uh, sorry, I forgot to say that it was, um, this is for freelancers and one for service providers. Let's put it in, okay? Mm-hmm. for service providers, whether it's one person, business or small team, or even medium team, it all applies.

[00:36:15] But it's not e-commerce, right? It's just for service providers. Yes. So, um, the moment you are like, okay, I don't know what to do, and you have a template for a service provider homepage. And this template says, you tells, you has messaging in a nutshell in the sense of, uh, banner is this is who I am, uh, get this benefit by doing this or, uh, solve this pro like I solve this problem by doing this.

[00:36:39] And this like blanks you already have in your answers. So this is like, uh, of course it's not like a puzzle. You need to still think a lot about it. Mm-hmm, but it gives you a skeleton. So you're like, okay, so I need this section, I need this section, I need this section and this section talks about this, this, this, and this, this, this I can already find in my answers.

[00:36:59] Mm-hmm. Sure. You need to rewrite it to make it more succinct. Sure. need to put some kind of hook for this. Go read my book. Let's put it like this. Mm-hmm, but you, you are not starting from white screen. This is so important. It again, removes the barrier from, you know, people who want to do it themselves.

[00:37:13] Mm-hmm. And, uh, I sense that with me, your email list. Um, is indeed people who would like to do it themselves. Because my audience is like two kind of audiences. These people who come to me and become my clients. Sure. Some of them come from my email list. Mm-hmm. But most of them actually find my, on LinkedIn or through podcast or through featured in some kind of articles.

[00:37:33] Mm-hmm. But the audience that sits on my list, couple of thousands of people, these are those who would like to, uh, do things themselves and this is what I'm creating for them to help them.

[00:37:43] It's a bit scary. I did do a test, I think a year ago, 10, uh, students, and I only had, um, I think two lectures in the beginning. But I just wanted to know if the format was okay because I was also not sure about the format. There's like give, feeding them, spoon feeding them those [00:38:00] questions.

[00:38:00] Mm-hmm, because people expect, okay, give me a questionnaire. I start answering it, but it will be super overwhelming. I didn't wanna do it. Yes. And I was like, um, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to spoon feed them this as well, because it's not the way people are used to, you know, having information in this course.

[00:38:16] So I tested that and it seemed to be fine. So the format was fine, but I'm still not sure about, how many people are out there, are ready to do the work? Mm-hmm, because it's really for people who are ready to do the work. Mm-hmm, it's nothing that you buy, you skim through and you, you think that you did something.

[00:38:32] No. Right. But I mean, it's super helpful, but it needs you, you know, it needs you in your effort. I mean, we will see, I don't know. 

[00:38:40] Rene: Yeah. Do you think that you would offer it to people who wanted to work with you, but maybe couldn't afford you? Like, as an, as an option to.

[00:38:47] Gill: Yeah, definitely. I mean, this is, I mean, they, they, some people do say to me openly, I mean, it did happen.

[00:38:52] And they say, well, you're so awesome, but right now we can't, uh mm-hmm, I mean, I didn't ask them to work with me, but they just, you know, they just saw from themselves and I can't totally feel that it comes from, you know, they just wanted to show their appreciation and I really appreciate their appreciation. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:06] Um, yeah, for these people like this, definitely. Mm-hmm. But again, you know, it's not something like, I think more useful. This would be my second course. I'm already thinking about a second course. Mm-hmm, nice. Because really on top of that, when you have this foundation, how you define the messaging and give people a course that says, okay, freelance homepage writing course.

[00:39:23] You know, and I didn't wanna do it first, although it's like appealing because you say how to write a homepage as a freelancer, but because I'm so thorough and honest as a, as a copywriter, you cannot write a good page homepage, like lead generation page, whatever if you don't, you haven't answered those questions right

[00:39:42] from my questionnaire, you can't, mm-hmm, and especially if you've never done it. 

[00:39:45] I can give you a template, but the template only is only as good as stuff you fill it with. Right. And if you don't know, if you really come from like, I've never done it, and now you're trying to write a page without first you know, thinking about how to structure [00:40:00] your offer. Sometimes it happens that clients realize, especially if we're talking about adding new offer, like, oh, I don't need this, or I need to combine these too.

[00:40:07] Mm-hmm, and you first need to think about this. And I, I really, I couldn't get it, you know? Uh, how should I say? I couldn't just go and say, okay, here's your course about freelancer homepage. I know you have no idea about your messaging, you know, whatever. You're not sure about the problems. Mm-hmm, but you know, the title is very marketable.

[00:40:25] The title's easy, catchy, sexy, whatever. It's not business soul searching very little and do the work, but this is the better way. And I can't just give people something that I know is not gonna work, or let's put like this will gonna work worse. I want them to learn to do it properly. Mm-hmm. And this is the only way. You first need to, you know, define your messaging, define, decide, or uncover why people should buy from me.

[00:40:53] Because you guess what? Some, at some point you may uncover that you're not ready to start a business. Mm. That you may not have an audience and you better know it now. Yes. Not after you invested, God knows how much money in your website. Mm-hmm, or you know, first do proof of concept.

[00:41:09] So will I have enough people to market to? It's again, important, but hard work. Mm-hmm, and there is nobody there who is standing with, you know, sign saying, we want the course. This is like it was with the book. I'm telling you, we want the course. Yes. Yeah. We won the book and I was like, okay, here's your book, but this like, you know, nobody, nobody knows like, okay.

[00:41:29] A couple of people know I start talking about it slowly because I already passed the 50% mark of completion. I finally scripted all the videos. I have three more videos to record. I already gave a lot of stuff to my proofreader and I'm excited. I really think that I'm gonna get it through the finish line.

[00:41:47] I have my own blocks. I have days. Yes. Where I sit there and I hyper ventilate and I was like, what am I doing? I dunno what I'm doing. Yes. Nobody's gonna buy. Oh my God. Oh my God. And there are days where you're like, okay, screw it. I'm doing, you know where mm-hmm. There are days where like, man, this is [00:42:00] actually not bad.

[00:42:00] Mm-hmm, the thing is just keep going. You know? Yes. You're like, okay, this is, today is the day, so just go play some computer game or whatever, you know, tickles your fancy I, whatever you're doing, just declare this day for done. But just don't declare the project for done. Just decide that it's a bad day, you know, and just move on.

[00:42:16] It's just probably this resilience and stubbornness that I have and I'm. I'm gonna do it. Okay. It'll take you doing it like, yes, but I am gonna do it. 

[00:42:24] Rene: So will will the course just be totally standalone or will you also have an option where you, they get a little bit of you as a, a higher price point?

[00:42:32] Gill: I'm thinking about it. I really prefer to do it standalone because I'm introvert and the, the less I have to do with people the better. Mm-hmm. Yes. I like people like one-on-one, like if I have client projects mm-hmm, and we like, you know, this is like one person of contact to whatever, it's fine. Mm-hmm.

[00:42:45] But this kind of doing webinars or forums, it's not my thing. And to me it's important that my business is fun and that I, you know, yeah. Turning, uh, up in I'm, uh, like doing something with passion and think of these kind of interviews I really love and, um, but I think this classes, virtual classrooms and whatever, I think I'm not built for it.

[00:43:07] I mean, I may try it, but right now the idea just doesn't seem too cool. Mm-hmm, I also asked people whether they would like a forum when I was doing this, yeah, when it was 15 just students, not many said that they would like to. Okay. They were like, hmm. Some of them even said interesting idea, but I'm not sure if I would have the time, and I'm thinking the course is already so time consuming.

[00:43:26] Mm-hmm. The other thing is nothing is set in stone, you know? Yeah. You just like launch it and then you tweak it while you go. Mm-hmm, if we just, you know, if we just see, there is no way it works without my feedback, which I can't imagine, but just theoretically speaking, why not? We just say, okay, then I have to add something.

[00:43:42] Mm-hmm, right now it's not, it's not planned, but, um, maybe there would be some offers, uh, promo offers or launch offers where like, first time people get my feedback as well. 

[00:43:52] Usually indeed that I go through the questionnaire and I do additional, I ask additional questions.

[00:43:58] Mm-hmm, because it's like what clients [00:44:00] do. This also will help me see whether what I was talking about in these, uh, slide, uh, decks and videos, whether it, it is, was good enough for them to give good enough answers, you know? Yes. For me, I think it's important even to improve the course that I have a look at, let's say ten first people or whoever wants me to look at it.

[00:44:19] Mm-hmm, so I, for me, I understand, okay. How well was I able to guide them, you know, when I was offline basically. Yeah. So the static, you know, image of me. Mm-hmm, static print of me that is like, yes, I can't give them live feedback. They have to just follow my advice, whatever it is right now. Mm-hmm, how well was it, were they able to execute it?

[00:44:40] And you know, if I see then from 10 people, eight, really? They didn't do it well, it means it's on me. Mm-hmm, if I see, okay, one, two, we're not able to quite catch it. I may have like another five people, whatever to check with and see. So I will, I will decide later, but ideal situation is me waking up and seeing $10,000 on Yes. Yes. Haven't done nothing about it. 

[00:45:03] Rene: Um, but you have done a lot already. Yeah. And I think that's true. That could be a hard thing for people to do because whenever you're working with clients one-on-one, you do the work, you send the bill, they pay the bill, or they pay the bill. Yes. Then you do the work and it's, it's really tied.

[00:45:17] It's, you know, closely in time, but this is like, you're, you've done a lot of work and you're doing a lot of work without seeing any payment yet, and hopefully, yeah, it will come to fruition, you know, through, and it's good that you're doing the testing because, yeah, you don't wanna spend all these years and all this time building something that people are not going to want.

[00:45:35] Gill: Exactly. No. The thing is, I wa I was joking on Twitter. It's like, man, when I'm done with this course, I'm gonna charge you people $1 million. Cause it is so much work. Be for like six minute videos. It took me like six hours of work scripting and recording and cutting, editing, subtitles, uploading. I thought I'm gonna go nuts.

[00:45:53] And I had like, I don't know, 15 videos. Okay. They're short because, you know, chapter and whatever. Mm-hmm. But just first [00:46:00] you need to do slides. And doing these slides, it's like, oh my God. And the thing is, it's already all in my head. It's nothing interesting. Mm-hmm, I will not learn anything new. And for me it's also hard.

[00:46:08] But here everything, it is something that I've done for the past six years and I'm like, man, it is so hard to sit there, have the patience and do all of this. Mm-hmm, and it is super, super, super. It's a lot of work indeed. Mm-hmm, I've never thought that a course is so, course is work people, so digital products, little small digital products.

[00:46:26] Mm-hmm. checklist, template, whatever. Is not, not much work really, especially if you've already done half of it. But a course is like course crazy, crazy lot of work. 

[00:46:36] Rene: Yes. Yeah. And I'd like to tell people like, don't start with a course. Don't. Yes. Don't like a year's worth of time where you're holed up in, you know, your office.

[00:46:45] Yeah. Recording all these videos and doing all these things with no feedback and then you launch it, you know, and then nobody buys it. Like, I just don't think that's a good approach to. 

[00:46:54] Gill: No, no, no. You need to start, really use, like you need to start, and then also build your confidence because you learn more about your audience.

[00:46:59] Because especially if you're like, okay, you're starting with a course, but then you need to be super confident. Mm-hmm, if you say, okay, this is, I have an audience who are saying, where is the course, then do the course. But if it's really mm-hmm, usually it's not the case at all. Mm-hmm, usually it's something that we decide that it may be useful, you know?

[00:47:15] Mm-hmm. based on some criteria we have and yeah, that is, I was also, I mean that's why it's, I think, taking so slow because even after I wrote a book, you know, created digital products and still I'm like, man, I do not know. That is so scary. Mm-hmm, who is gonna buy it? And maybe I'm doing too much because I'm this kind of a too much kind of person.

[00:47:35] Because you ask me a simple question, you know, like, what should I put in my website tagline? And I'm like, it depends. And then, then I give you a lecture for one hour about all the factors it depends on. And actually other person will just give you a two sentence answer. Mm-hmm. But I know that's a wrong answer because especially in copywriting, so much depends.

[00:47:53] Depends. There's so few things that do not depend on anything. Mm-hmm. But um, yeah, I'm kind of, this depends kind of person and I need to give [00:48:00] you full amount of information. Mm-hmm. And I'm afraid that I'm a bit overdoing, maybe not because I'm stopping myself and I'm like, is it really important that you say it now?

[00:48:08] You know how many cases out of hundred will this apply to? Maybe mm-hmm, you should just forget about this. So I'm already aware of this, you know? Mm-hmm, and it's just hard to say. It'll be my first course and I'm, uh, prepared for both, you know, for success and failure. And I'm like, whatever happens, I don't care.

[00:48:23] I need to do this. Um, because this is how I learn. This is how I will move forward. 

[00:48:28] Rene: So what then do you think, or what do you expect the direction of your business to go? Do you think you'll be spending more time creating these products or just an equal amount of time, uh, working with clients one-on-one and the same time, you know, creating the products? What, like what do you think about going forward?

[00:48:45] Gill: Well, it depends on the monetary reward situation. But even if the monetary reward is like really good from the passive income, I would like to keep working with clients. Mm-hmm, because it's like I can't teach people something that I haven't done in years. Right? Mm-hmm. So it needs to be current because now this very scary chat,

[00:49:04] you know, artificial intelligence stuff is coming. Yes. I'm not that scared because my thing, my, my point on this is like, uh, how can you hold a machine accountable? Because before you came, you know, to a freelancer who was like, uh, you know, uh, uh, like write to me something, and then they wrote something and, uh, you used it and it didn't work.

[00:49:24] Whether it was SEO advice or marketing strategy, because we're not talking about the words. Okay, sure. A copywriter who will be then hired, they can, uh, use it for themselves, not tell the client to make that work faster, but still produce a really good outcome because they know what good copy is, if we are talking about copywriters mm-hmm.

[00:49:42] But people started generating code with this, you know, that they're gonna use somewhere on their production system mm-hmm or um, they start generating marketing strategy. And I'm thinking, you take this piece of copy, you take marketing strategy, it doesn't work. What are you gonna do? Mm-hmm, are you gonna sue the chat [00:50:00] bot or what?

[00:50:00] What? What is, how? How do, do, does this chat bot have reviews or project previously done in your niche? How is it supposed to work people seriously? Yeah. It looks like it produces something that is coherent or it looks like an average operator. Okay. Then the other thing is just don't be average. You know, I know I'm not average, and I also do website reviews a lot.

[00:50:21] Website audits, not only the exact words but I do, uh, analyze the data, the performance, you know, the Google Analytics, the heat maps, the session replaced. So I'm thinking, good luck chat bot doing this, you know? Yes, right now you cannot replace, yeah. This you cannot replace. And even the words, I think, uh, this is like, this is maybe a, um, like gullible thing in the sense of people would think because words are words, you know, letters on the screen, and it sounds nice.

[00:50:47] Mm-hmm, but you know, the thing is a professional copywriter, they guarantee more or less, sure, we can't guarantee everything. Mm-hmm. Because it's not everything in our hands. If your traffic is rubbish, and if you are bringing, yeah, people who are interested in dog shows to your SaaS website, sorry, you know mm-hmm, it's not gonna happen. But, um, or design, if your designer completely screws up, uh mm-hmm, the page and that, you know, disturbs the messaging and you have flashy pop-ups, what do you, your website loads slow. I mean, it's not in my hands. Mm-hmm, but otherwise, you know, still, you know that it's a copywriter who worked with these famous companies who have a track record.

[00:51:22] What kind of track record does your chat bot have? You know, mean? I, I would like to wait and see what happens because it's, it's hard to predict anything, right? And so many predictions were made about other things that didn't go, you know, into fulfillment or whatever. So, but I'm still optimistic, but I'm just saying, you know, we don't know what, what happens.

[00:51:40] Mm-hmm. So I would like to stay, uh, active in the industry to work with clients, to know what's new, what kind of new tools. Because heat maps, it's not something, maybe if you ask people, I don't know when heat maps and session replace came into existence, maybe not that long ago, right? I need to know about stuff like this.

[00:51:57] And, uh, you know, people, they then they start [00:52:00] getting messages from their prospects saying, wow, we read your website and it looks like, mm-hmm, you are the only people who understands us. This is such, this is such a great feedback. I really love it. Yeah. I think about it often because this is what I aim for. The website, when people read my copy, they should get a feeling that this company or this person, service provider, they understand me. Mm-hmm. Like nobody else or better than anybody else. So this is like, you know, emotional based copywriting, empathy based, empathy infused copywriting. Mm-hmm. It's super important to me. And so, because I also, uh, really enjoy reading about psychology in general.

[00:52:33] So that stuff you can't just, you know, know by just creating some products. Yeah. And products will, I also need to know my audience. I need to talk, stay in touch with my audience to know what they need because I have like this different part of the audience who would like to study it themselves. Mm-hmm.

[00:52:46] I would like to do it themselves. And Yeah. So to me, I can't imagine just sitting creating products. I think it will be also boring and it also would feel fake because how can I tell people about something that I stopped doing, you know, myself? 

[00:52:57] Rene: Well, yes, because it changes, like you said, like this, this stuff changes over time.

[00:53:02] So what, can you, kind of, just to summarize maybe two to three things that you recommend for people who have not done anything yet. They, they're kind of on the, on the precipice of, you know, creating something and they're trying to find their direction and their confidence and things like that. So what is maybe something either that you did or didn't do, or wish you had done, um, that you recommend for people who are creating their first product?

[00:53:26] Gill: Yeah. First very important thing that will also give you confidence like listen to your audience. You can even start a poll or whatever. Um, when you are sitting there, like you didn't start anything. You have no audience and you're just reading or like, uh, uh, spying on those LinkedIn posts from like LinkedIn bros saying, create a digital product and you will be a millionaire.

[00:53:47] You need an audience for that. You need people who are gonna buy it. And first of all, I would say if you really, really didn't do anything, you don't do any marketing, you don't have an audience, first, create that first start marketing mm-hmm your [00:54:00] ideas, your advice, whatever you, you are offering, you know, your, your product.

[00:54:04] Let's put like the services, whatever. Just to, uh, test the waters and see what do people want actually, what are their problems? How can you help them solve it in a digital product way? Mm-hmm. So it's not creating digital product for the sake of digital product. It's creating a really, really helpful thing because the only, only if it's helpful, people will buy it.

[00:54:24] Well, unless you are LinkedIn bros, the teaching bros to, you know, sell to LinkedIn bros. Who would like to teach the LinkedIn bros to sell to LinkedIn bros. But that's a different story. Let's hope you're not this person. Um, so if it's not some kind of scheme, you know mm-hmm, if you're like, seriously, like serious person who would like to help people for real mm-hmm,

[00:54:44] uh, first, you know, just listen to your audience. If you have an audience, you are in a really great position. Do a poll, do a survey. If nobody answered, reach personally to people you know, who on your email list in their DMs. They would not mind if you had a positive interaction in the past, maybe answer that question or whatever.

[00:55:01] Mm-hmm, start doing research, you know, start doing research and then, um, because, you know, I was just lucky that people were like, we want the book, but, uh, not everybody will be probably so lucky. Mm-hmm. Um, once you've done that, then start when you, when you say, okay, it, it looks to me that people would like to have, uh, this product, um, then, uh, just, you know, just create it, but make sure it's something small.

[00:55:25] Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, it's hard to give like this advice because I don't know the topic and the niche, you know, that is super hard to give the same advice. Yeah. But I was start small because you can always scale up. Scaling down just doesn't feel good, let's put like this mm-hmm, because you already invested so much time, but it always needs to, need to scale, uh, can scale, uh, up, start with something small.

[00:55:46] Maybe it, it can be, um, literally anything can be checklist. It can be in a different format. Let's say it can be an Excel sheet because I have a credibility checklist. It's in an Excel sheet form. Uh, I have a, um, this ultimate [00:56:00] website check is, that is just a PDF in a mind map form with a mind map tool where you can just check off the task and collapse the branches of a map tool.

[00:56:09] Just think about it. I mean, if, you know, some people, um, sell as a digital products piece of, uh, automatically run some kind of software, it's, it's based on really, it's like it's a plugin for your Excel or something, you know, for mm-hmm or in Google Sheets. Something that you know you can, or just like a template, you copy paste your data and it does something to your data and.

[00:56:30] Or template, you know? Mm-hmm, if let's say you are a web designer, um, or just a graphic designer, maybe I know family planner, I don't know. You know, it just start small, but something that resonates with your audience and solves their problem, mm-hmm, fast and you know, with, in a way that is helpful. You know, don't start with a course that will be a third part of the advice.

[00:56:54] Start with a course you'll regret and. 

[00:56:58] Rene: Even if you do one later, you might regret it. 

[00:57:00] Gill: Yeah. And, you know, and it's like, and and, okay. The other part of advice is just like, uh, work through the phases of doubt. You will have phases of doubt, but the thing is a lot of people are doing it. A lot of people done it, despite the doubt.

[00:57:14] Everybody has doubt. I have doubt. So many doubts. Mm-hmm, I may look very put together, but it's not true at all, on some days, let's put, okay, on some days I am put together, but on some days, no. Mm-hmm, it's normal. It's really normal. That's the way. All right. Uh, don't think that, oh, everybody's doing better than me and mm-hmm.

[00:57:33] No, you're comparing, uh, your worst moments with their best moments. Right. Nobody will post, nobody will post online. Mm-hmm. being an embryo pose on their bed, you know, crying for three days. Mm-hmm, nobody's gonna do this, but you know, that you may have phases, like, I really hope you don't. Mm-hmm. But you know, we all know.

[00:57:48] Rene: Yes. No, it's right. It's normal. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah. 

[00:57:51] Gill: Just, you know, just tell, just be also, be kind to yourself. Maybe that's also like mm-hmm. Try not to push yourself too hard, but also don't let yourself procrastinate. [00:58:00] Yes. Like super hard, because if you notice you procrastinate, maybe be an adult to this child who's procrastinating right now and say, okay, you know, I give you ten more minutes.

[00:58:09] And after 10 minutes, either you go to sleep because it's 2 bloody AM in the morning. Mm-hmm, or you do something useful. Another thing that I really found helpful is doing at least something just even if it's five minutes. Mm-hmm, because five minutes over a week of seven days is 35 minutes. Mm-hmm. And if you do 10 minutes, wow.

[00:58:27] That's even twice as much. And uh, small things done regularly add up to really big thing. To me, it add up in a, to a book because the steps I kept doing regularly for a year and a half, and suddenly I had a book. Mm-hmm. Right? If you would like to start with a book, let's put it that way. Yeah. Um, starting from the white, completely white page with no ideas whatsoever.

[00:58:50] It's super scary and it's also risky, I must say. The risk is higher. So listen to your audience, see what you've already done. If you can repurpose it, upgrade it, you know, try to find something where you did, would not have to start from scratch. Right? That's also important, right? 

[00:59:06] Rene: Yes. I love these. So, great points, excellent points.

[00:59:08] So where can people find you online? Where do you want them to go to learn more about you? 

[00:59:12] Gill: Um, my website gillandrews.com. That's really my harbor. You will find everything there. My book, my YouTube channel that I really would like to, uh, start doing more. But I was waiting for the course. It was already proof of concept, whether it's, it's a viable marketing channel for me, and it was mm-hmm.

[00:59:26] But just doing videos, just so effort. Mm-hmm. So much effort. And I was like, if I have nothing big to sell, I'm not gonna get, you know, any like, really little monetary word from this. Why bother so much. Mm-hmm. But I just wanted to see if it works. You still, you will still find some, uh, fun videos, teardowns of a couple of pages I wrote.

[00:59:44] I really like to teach people in a way that it's not overwhelming. Mm-hmm. That with stories, with jokes, with analogies that you know, are seriously weird or whatever, because this is how you remember things and how you don't feel overwhelmed. Mm-hmm. Right. So this is my style and you will find some YouTube [01:00:00] videos.

[01:00:00] Okay. Coming back to gillandrews.com, just like one word and then you will find everything. Twitter, LinkedIn, and YouTube mm-hmm are the only three social platforms I am, uh, active on. And I think that they will also find my book and checklist as well, where it just says tools where I have like menus, hire me or do it yourself.

[01:00:18] And when you click or do it yourself, there will be a tools label. You go there and there, you find free and paid. I have two paid checklists, and I think four, even one quiz also for free. They're all lead magnets. You can get on my list mm-hmm either with the lead magnet or without. I also have a signup form, and interestingly, people do sign up with really no incentive whatsoever just after reading my article. And you also can connect with me through a contact page. There's a form there. And also my email address. 

[01:00:46] Rene: Awesome. Great. Awesome. Thank you so much. It was great to talk to you today. I can't wait to get all those links and put them in the show notes. Yeah, and all good. So thank you so much again. I'll talk to you soon. 

[01:00:55] Gill: You're welcome. Thanks for having me and talk to you soon. 

[01:00:58] Rene: Hey, thanks for listening. I'd love to continue the conversation in your inbox. Email SUBSCRIBE to hey at yfdp.show or sign up in the show notes to get bimonthly emails about how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. Can't wait to see you there.