Continuous learning and experimentation in business with Kim Doyal

[00:00:00] Rene: Hey everyone. Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed-out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing one-on-one work and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. I'm your host, Rene Morozowich. Let's go. 

[00:00:28] Hey everybody. Today I'm here with Kim. And Kim has over 15 years of experience in the digital marketing space. She's an email and newsletter enthusiast, podcaster, and founder of Create It - The Content Planner, focused on living with intention and purpose while maximizing fun. Hey Kim, how are you?

[00:00:46] Kim: I'm great. How are you, Rene? Thank you for having me. This is super fun. 

[00:00:49] Rene: Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah. I can't wait to hear all about your products. I know you have some products up now. Um, but before we dive in, before I forget, um, do you wanna tell us a little bit about you in your own words? 

[00:00:57] Kim: I absolutely love what I do and, um, I am sort of a Pollyanna. I am the never ending optimist. I, there's always a silver lining everything, you know? Mm-hmm. I believe a lot of those trite things, but it's because I've also been through my own ups and downs and challenges, which we all have, but of course, the older you get, the heavier they get.

[00:01:16] Mm-hmm. Um, but now, you know, I just, um, I'm on a mission to spend half my year in California and half my year in Costa Rica. I just got back from Costa Rica, uh, living there almost two years in February. So, yeah. It's, it's, it's a good life. 

[00:01:30] Rene: So you have a couple products up now, some courses, and you also have the content planner, which is a physical product, but it has digital version. So, but I think you mentioned that, that none of those were your first product.

[00:01:41] So what was your very first digital product? And just tell us a little bit about that. 

[00:01:47] Kim: So I, I am gonna do sort of a two because the first one was a digital and a physical, believe it or not. Okay. And I think that was like in 2008. The first paid product I did was actually a live workshop. [00:02:00] And it was how to set up, um, Google Analytics and a sitemap for WordPress. Mm-hmm. And here's the funny thing though, is, so we did a live webinar, so there was a replay, but I literally shipped people a physical DVD as well.

[00:02:13] Wow. Of the replay. Yeah. So there's a company and it, they're still out there. It's called Kunaki. Not that you would be shipping DVDs. And it was like a buck 50. Right. Wow. And you, you upload the artwork, they burn it, they shrink wrap it, they ship it. And I was like, I. Ooh. You know, because the time 2008 was a while ago.

[00:02:32] Mm-hmm. You know, that physical products, there was still this, you know, I don't know, they still existed.

[00:02:37] Rene: Yeah. And did they wanna hold something? Like, do you think that that made people want to sign up because they wanted to hold something in their hand at the end of it?

[00:02:43] Kim: I think so. I think there's also a higher perceived value. Mm-hmm. You know, there just is. Even to today where I think, you know, I, I won't go sideways here, but like, I mean, I have, you know, books and I'm like, yeah, it, it's just, and Amazon has to love me because I'm one of those people that I buy the physical, digital, Kindle. I think there is a higher perceived value and it doesn't matter if it's five bucks or 15. Mm-hmm. You know, one, I like the fact that people are willing to take out their credit card, even just pay for shipping, right? Mm-hmm. I'm sure you've heard the free plus shipping offer, but, um, I don't know. And it was just kind of what people were doing and I had a coach at the time and he did, you know, like I.

[00:03:23] I have always been sort of an audio file, so way back when, um, I worked in the book industry for like 10 years, so I really got into books on tape. Um, and so, but I, I would buy these big CD sets, right? Um, and on self-help and improvement and all this kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. And so I always had these cases. I, I don't know, it was just kind of what was being done at the time.

[00:03:43] Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:44] Rene: And if it didn't require too much extra from you, like if there was another company who was just, you know, burning the discs and sending them out, it wasn't like you were at home doing all of that and shipping. That's kind of my hangup with, with physical products is the involvement on your part, like [00:04:00] if it's drop shipping or print on demand or whatever, I'm all for it.

[00:04:03] Mm-hmm. But yeah, any, any extra If I have to go to the post office, I don't wanna do it. 

[00:04:09] Kim: You, you know what, and I totally get that. And it's funny because the first planner brand. We packed and shipped for a long time. Mm-hmm. Until it got to the point where we're like, okay, we have to hand this off. And so, you know, I'm about to test a free plus shipping offer mm-hmm.

[00:04:21] With this other planner because there's sort of a different long-term goal with this one. Um, It's kind of funny though. I don't know if you're a TikTok-er, but like TikTok shops are blowing. Okay, well good for you because, well, tell me about it though. Well, you know, TikTok shops are blowing up. Mm-hmm. And there's a lot, it, it's become so much easier to do all this stuff, you know, where you can get, you know, just a quick little thermal printer and you connect it to ShipStation, you're printing labels and it's like, so it depends, especially as you're getting started, I mean, I wouldn't go to a distributor or anything.

[00:04:56] Mm-hmm. And so, you know, it's just a matter of testing things and we'll get into more of the product side of it, but like, I'm gonna be launching a community and anybody who buys the annual, you know, they'll save a couple months or whatever, but I'm gonna ship them a physical box of stuff because there is this fomo and it's like you learn a little bit more about that.

[00:05:15] Universal you right is mm-hmm. When you start studying copy and the psychology behind what makes people buy and and whatnot, you know, and there there is associations with things, okay? And anybody listening, don't be a hater, but I'm one of those nutty pumpkin spice people. Okay? And so, like, I was down in San Marcos with my sister last week helping move my niece into college.

[00:05:36] And we happened to be down there when the pumpkin spice lattes hit Starbucks. And mind you, Costa Rica ruined me on coffee. But, um, good coffee, but mm-hmm. It's one of those like, it's not that like pumpkin spice tastes phenomenal. They're like treats, right? It's like a dessert, but it's much more about the emotion it invokes in me.

[00:05:55] It feels like fall. And it reminds me of my mom and, and traditions [00:06:00] and family and the sense and the smell. And so that's what we wanna think about with products. And so I think there is a way to differentiate yourself with physical products combined with digital, because it creates a different experience for the customer.

[00:06:15] Rene: I love that. I had a coach a while ago or earlier this year, and yeah, she would send, each time I like re-upped every three months she would send a box of things. Now she wasn't packaging it, but yeah, she picked it out and it had, you know, a thank you card and a, you're really excited to work with you, sort of vibe to it and yeah, it was nice.

[00:06:32] It's nice to get things in the mail. 

[00:06:33] Kim: And I think that, yeah, and it's also like what you send in the mail, it's not just about swag. Like if I go to an event mm-hmm. And they're gonna send me gimme a t-shirt, well that's fine. You know? But at the same time, are you, did you see the big Alex Hermosi book launch that just went nuts?

[00:06:49] Rene: I did, yeah. What, what's up with this? Why? 

[00:06:52] Kim: I've got his offers book and it was just fascinating. He knows what he is doing. He's got multiple eight, nine figure companies.

[00:06:58] If he can teach me something about lead generation. Yeah. But I watched it and, um, it was just phenomenal. I mean, 'cause he, his whole business model is giving everything away for free. Mm-hmm. Because he buys into companies. Right. So he's got a holdings company anyway. But it, my point is it was like his book offer, that's literally all, he was selling a book and then if you bought three or more books, you could get an acquisition.com hat, which was his, and I'm like, me, I'm like, I don't wear baseball hats.

[00:07:24] I think even with the physical products, you know, something that's really neat. I don't know if you know jimmy Rose. Content Snare. Yes. Mm-hmm. Good friend of mine. And so it was really neat. It was what they, what he was doing for a while was to thank people for being in the podcast was these beautiful wooden coasters with your logo.

[00:07:40] Oh. Like, uh, laser cut into it, you know? Mm-hmm. I think the combination, you wanna thank the value in them, not just advertise for us. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:07:50] Rene: Yeah. Exactly. And I like the useful things also, like you mentioned coaster, like just seems like a really nice thing too. So any, what else about that first product, um, you know, your [00:08:00] audience, what problem did it solve for them?

[00:08:02] Like, did you have trouble creating it like any, and what else do you wanna tell us about that? 

[00:08:07] Kim: You know, I always say, I'm like, ignorance really was bliss when I was first getting started because I didn't have preconceived ideas. Mm-hmm. Um, I hadn't had any trolls in the WordPress space. I, none of that had happened yet.

[00:08:18] Mm-hmm. And it was all new and exciting. Right. And I am definitely, I wanna say an excitable person. I'm very enthusiastic when I find something I love, I'm passionate about it. Yeah. And so I was just like, let's see what happens. And it was more about, um, kind of, you know, like ripping the bandaid off. I did a live webinar, I taught it, I managed to get the tech.

[00:08:40] I, I think there were so many moving pieces. Mm-hmm. But, but you know, so it's, it's, it was more about the fact that I did it and it worked. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:46] And I was like, okay. Okay. And then it was more as I started understanding the space, I wanna say my next digital product that I really got into, um, was when I got into the Genesis framework with WordPress. Mm-hmm. And I did this whole, uh, WordPress Genesis for Beginners. And I actually put that on Kindle too.

[00:09:07] I sold it on, oh, it's still up there somewhere. Um, because, you know, again, I'm not a developer, I'm not a coder, any of that. Mm-hmm. But I found this, this way to explain things to the everyday user, you know? Mm-hmm. That was kind of my little niche at the time. Um, and so that was a little bit more involved.

[00:09:24] And then I started adding video courses to that. And then I kind of pivoted to diving into Genesis. And so, you know, it was that I knew my audience were people who were trying to figure out how to use Genesis, just the way I was using it. They weren't developers, they weren't coders. And, but at the time, you know, I really didn't connect with copy, you know?

[00:09:47] Mm-hmm. It was just like, it felt like I had a friend who used to tell me, write 50 headlines for everything you're gonna do. And I was like, 50 50. Yeah. It was a little bit obnoxious and I'm like, you know, just, I'm gonna go with a no. [00:10:00] Mm-hmm. But, but it kind of turned me off from copywriting, you know?

[00:10:04] Mm-hmm. And it wasn't really until I started digging into email marketing and understanding copy that I was able to start looking at digital products differently. Mm-hmm. And the problem they solved. 

[00:10:16] Rene: Yeah, for sure. You mentioned some of the like marketing psychology a little bit. Do you, did you study any of that? Did you read any books on that? Like where, or is it just experience and over time? That's one question. Um, and another question is, where did you find or get the audience around this? You know, were you on social media?

[00:10:34] Were you blogging, uh, email newsletters? What, how did you build that audience? 

[00:10:38] Kim: So primarily built the audience through blogging and social. One of the easiest things to do to kind of break the ice with socials, I was just sharing things that I found of value. I totally study copy and, but so I, so I built the list through social.

[00:10:51] I always, I knew right away to have a lead magnet on my site. Nice. And, and so from day one, I did that. Not that I did a whole bunch of great follow up because I was always, mm-hmm. I was trying too hard, like everything at the time, like I always call it like old school marketer marketers. It was like, enough about me.

[00:11:07] What do you think about me? Their newsletters are easing as they were called. Were like, you know, here's what this client says, how awesome I am. Here's how wonderful I am, and here's all my speaking accolades, and it's like, what do you do? You know, so. Mm-hmm. I got in my head a little bit too much about that.

[00:11:24] And so the audience wasn't necessarily difficult to create at the time. I think the challenge for me has always been more promoting myself, which now I'm like, you hit 50. I'm, I don't care. This is it. And um, I also am a big believer in paid with organic. But um, so the audience, you know, you just, you have to show up and be consistent.

[00:11:44] Mm-hmm. And then I launched my podcast originally in 2013. It was a WordPress Chick podcast for a good five years. And that gave me massive visibility 'cause podcasting was still new. There was maybe five WordPress podcasts at the time. Wow. I was probably the only female. And [00:12:00] I, what I did intentionally was I said, I'm gonna do a solo show and then an interview and a solo show and the interview and the interviews blow up relationships. I mean, you probably mm-hmm feel that way. And, you know, I, ideally we stay in touch after this interview. Mm-hmm. You and Yeah. And so the relationship piece really, really grew, um, The email and the copy though it wasn't until, gosh, in 2016, I'd found Ben Settle.

[00:12:23] I don't follow him anymore. He's a little misogynistic for me. That was another thing that happened at 50. I was like, enough of that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, you know, so, but I studied him, I watched what he did for a year. He did daily emails and it was this story-based email with kind of a pivot and a call to action.

[00:12:42] And he sells every single day in his emails unapologetically. And he had a physical, uh, email player's newsletter, which was great. And so I watched and then I was like, I'm gonna do this. I don't care if everybody unsubscribes, I'm gonna figure this out. And it was super quiet the first month. And then by the third month, like I had tripled affiliate income.

[00:13:02] On stuff. Mm-hmm. Because it's this practice of how do I tell a story and how do I uniquely talk? And, you know, I have something I call my core content values. And the primary value is that I always want people to feel better for having engaged with me. Mm-hmm. Whether you learn something, you're amused. I use a lot of self-deprecating humor.

[00:13:19] Um, or that I touched your heart, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I wanna be able to make a connection. And so I know that that's kind of my life principle too. So if I am creating from that space, The right people show up. I don't care how esoteric that sounds. You know, the right people show up as long as you're putting the message out there.

[00:13:35] And so I think I will forever be a student of copywriting. Mm-hmm. Um, I have, I did copy school for a while, Joanna Wiebe is amazing. Um, I read Ann Hanley, you know? Mm-hmm. I mean, I, I read a lot, but it is through the practice. And then you can find different tools and frameworks that there was this, um, it's a 12 point sales page framework, and it was a PDF from some guy David Frey maybe.

[00:13:59] [00:14:00] And it's like, get attention, do this, do this. So I started practicing and I'm like, okay, I can follow these 12 steps and I can do this. And of course now, like, you know, what I do is I'll take that and put it in ChatGPT. I give tons of context and I give tons, this is what it is, this is what I'm doing.

[00:14:15] Here's my audience. Please write a sales page using this framework. And it's like, mm-hmm. Oh God. It's, it's so much easier. But it's just, it's just through practicing, you know? And I always feel that that's like the, um, The work that people don't wanna do 'cause it's behind the scenes, you're not actually producing and publishing.

[00:14:33] But the practical application of it, and I'm kind of toying with the idea of starting, have you heard of the term copy work? Mm-hmm. Where you basically, you take, and again, I mean I would probably look for current sales pages, um, but you hand write it, but you long hand, oh, you know, and you copy copy writing.

[00:14:53] Mm-hmm. And so, 'cause there is this thing, I'm totally a journaler. Um, you know, like I had a scrapbook store. I am a tactile person as much as I love my tech, but I remember things better when I write them down. Not to type them, but when I write them by hand. And so, um, you know, we're looking at that. But copywriting and learning to write well for the web will hands down, pay off more than anything else you do. I'm talking content, sales. Mm-hmm. Courses, everything. It's just mm-hmm. It's inevitable. 

[00:15:20] Rene: Well, if you can't get people to buy the product, you know, like it's, it doesn't matter what, how great the product is or what's in the product, it's, you know, leading people to the product and, and creating that connection and, you know, having that good marketing.

[00:15:33] I think that's so important. Like, it's not just about the product, it's about, there's other things involved too, and ongoing marketing too. Some people will create the product and launch it and then nothing. 

[00:15:44] Kim: I think there's also this narrative, right? Of, and I really felt this in the WordPress space. It was so, don't sell anything. Don't sell anything. Don't sell anything.

[00:15:53] You're a horrible human being for selling. You know? And it's like, I always give the analogy, I'm like, you don't get mad when you go to the grocery store, and there's [00:16:00] magazines and candy and mm-hmm. And gum at the register. Like, or when you walk in, you know, and it's holiday season and there's a table of cookies and pump like, and it's in your face.

[00:16:10] You don't get pissed off. Yeah. It's like, it's, it's very strange. The, the misperception or the attitude, you know, you see a lot of marketing, uh, how to sell without being salesy, and it's like mm-hmm. You know, we're not all salesy because we've got a process. 'cause you're marketing to your problem and we're marketing.

[00:16:29] Rene: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. One thing I have a hard time with is the sort of like limited time or, and I'm susceptible to this. I actually just bought something the other day off of Instagram. But from the reverse, I feel like if I'm going to try to get people to buy a thing that I have, I don't have a thing, but if I'm gonna try to get people to buy it, I want them to use it.

[00:16:49] So I don't want to kind of like trick them into buying it is kind of what it feels like by making it like only a limited time. Like how, I guess, like how can you have the best of both worlds? If you have any thoughts on this, how can you get people to buy and consume the thing that you bought? Because I feel like in in consuming it, you'll get those fans, you'll get that word of mouth marketing like, Hey, I bought this thing from so-and-so and it was really great because I used it not just, Hey, I bought this thing and they got the money, but I never used it, so I'm not going to recommend it. Do you know what I mean? 

[00:17:21] Kim: Yeah. And so there's a couple reframes there. One scarcity works. I think as long as there, there's integrity. I mean, there's no limited quantities of a digital product, right? Yes, yes. But you can close the doors. Yes. And it's not open again. Right? Right. That's legitimate. Mm-hmm. Okay.

[00:17:35] Or like when I launched this community, it's only gonna be, if you want the the box, they'll, I'll ship to you. Mm-hmm. You have to pay for the year. You know, and so that, or you know, something else I saw recently was where, maybe it was Alex, but where the bonus changes. So you don't have to completely change your marketing, but look, you've got till this week to get this bonus, so you want it.

[00:17:55] If not, it's gone. And then you have to honor that. So that's one. The other piece is it's all on the [00:18:00] follow up, you know, so I, obviously I'm a huge fan of email marketing. Mm-hmm. So the more engaged you can be with people who buy from you, and again, I've dropped the ball on this plenty of times by myself, but create that follow up sequence that stays top of mind.

[00:18:13] And then you can do outreach. I was talking about, because I noticed this and I. This is a very male dominated space. I actually recorded a whole podcast on this yesterday, and I'm not anti, but I'm like, where are the women?

[00:18:26] Mm-hmm. And I think men are much more verbal and, and loud. Mm-hmm. And not physically loud, but they're in your face more and they just do it. Right. Women operate innately by relationships. And so, I mean, and this is just biological stuff, right? So coming from that place, you know, I was talking about this, but with email, you know, you can do this.

[00:18:47] So I sent out an email to my list and I said, I'm curious, are you doing email marketing? If so, how's it working? If not, why not? Mm-hmm. And I literally hopped on the phone with like three or four different people and I'm like, let, let's have a conversation. Mm-hmm. You know? And I think people are afraid to do that.

[00:19:02] So when somebody buys something from you and you see them not progressing, don't hesitate. Send a video, do a quick Loom, and is everything okay? I noticed you bought this. Is there anything I could do to support you? And obviously you can't do this when you start having thousands and thousands of people.

[00:19:15] Right? So there's that. On the flip side of this, it's not my responsibility to make sure grown adults use what they purchase. 

[00:19:23] Rene: Right? Yeah. Right. I just, you know, in the, it's better for you if they do use it sort of, kind of mindset like that it will lead to them buying your next product, that it will lead to them referring your product to someone else.

[00:19:37] Just kind of that thing is, is what I was thinking. 

[00:19:40] Kim: Yeah, no, completely. And so you do the best you can, right? There are so many variables to getting people to consume and use. Mm-hmm. Um, and again, I think back to your point, Rene, of they have, you have to understand how to communicate.

[00:19:54] Mm-hmm. So if you know how to do good copywriting and you know how to sell the benefits to [00:20:00] them, and you show that you care, you know, I know there's tons of data on like course completion or whatnot. Mm-hmm. But you know, I, I swear to God, I thought about doing a series on, okay, here's all the tools I have, let's see if I know how to use them 'cause I've bought them, or here's all the products I have, let's go through them together because I'm not doing it. You know, accountability works for me. 

[00:20:20] But, um, I think it's just you have to know your audience. It's gonna look different for everybody. Have you heard of Luma lu.ma?

[00:20:29] Rene: I feel like is Joe Casabona using that now? I feel like I saw that recently, and I don't know if it's him or not. He uses a lot of tools. So is it, is it for webinars? 

[00:20:39] Kim: Yeah. Yeah. So it's for webinars. But like, what I like about it is it's just a nice clean registration page. Mm-hmm. It handles the email notifications and stuff.

[00:20:46] So like you can just put in a little bit and it takes care of it versus having to go create, you know, an automation mm-hmm. And convert it or something. But what's really cool about it is, and I did this, I did a, um, conversations with ChatGPT workshop. It was like 47 bucks or something. But what I did is, while people were still on the call, I said, Do me a favor, and you know, we're all done.

[00:21:07] And I was like, you're gonna get a request from Luma to rate this workshop. I said, can you do me a favor? I said, I, I'm looking for more testimonials. If you found this valuable, please write something besides five out of five stars. Girl, I must have gotten 15 right away.

[00:21:23] So I think there's ways to set it up. Mm-hmm. So like going through a course or a digital product, depending on the length of it, but where you interject when they're still fresh and they're in there. Mm-hmm. Consuming the content. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, so there's different ways to set that up, and I think as long as you know that you have done everything you can Yeah.

[00:21:41] To support somebody through something, uh, you know, and again, I think personal outreach goes a long way. Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:47] Rene: Yeah. I like those. Yeah. And it just feels like, to me, it just feels better, like a good faith effort to, you know, I'm not just in it to sell you the whatever. I want you to use it and Yeah. If, if you ultimately don't, I get it, [00:22:00] but that I've done all I can to, to support you. Yeah. In, in your, your purchase, I guess. 

[00:22:06] Kim: Yeah. And I just, again, I told you I'm a little Pollyanna, but I truly believe Brene Brown said this, but it's like, I believe people are doing the best they can. Mm-hmm. And so if for some reason there's a product that didn't meet my expectations, so here's a great example is I had bought, um, like an email marketing course. Mm-hmm. And went through the first couple modules and I, and I just contacted, I said, look, the content is great. I said, but I know this and I'm doing these things. Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna ask for a refund. I don't wanna go deeper. Mm-hmm. Um, I think she's doing a phenomenal job, and it was no problem, you know?

[00:22:38] Here's another thing. I bought a course from, you know, Ramit Sethi? Yeah. Okay. Love his stuff, right? Mm-hmm. So I bought, he has a, it's Breakthrough Launch.

[00:22:47] And what was interesting is I bought that before I knew I was gonna need it because I'm on his list, which is funny. He doesn't segment his list. I remember emailing them one time, and I'm all interesting, okay, you guys, I don't need job stuff. Like I work for myself. Mm-hmm. I said, can I get off this?

[00:23:03] They're like, no, we don't do that. And I was like, what? I guess at, at that size you can. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But, his emails are always good, so, but they had sent an email asking about launches and what did you think of them and stuff, and I replied and I said, Look, I know like Product Launch Formula, Jeff Walker, it's been around forever.

[00:23:21] It works, but it feels tired. I feel like there has to be another way to do this. Mm-hmm. And so they replied back and they said, would you be interested? We're working on a, a, a course on going through the first module.

[00:23:31] And I was like, yeah. They didn't launch that course for a year later. I know he does his research and his homework. Mm-hmm. And they put a lot of time and energy into their content. And so when Breakthrough Launch came out, 'cause I knew it would be just a price would raise, so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna grab this now.

[00:23:46] And I had no intention of touching it for like six months and I was okay with that. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, I'm gonna get it at this price right now. Yeah. You know, or think about like, we're coming, we're not that far from Black Friday, Cyber Monday mm-hmm. People budget to, to do write offs and stuff, [00:24:00] so yeah, I just think, you know, do the best you can and trust. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and then measure what works. 

[00:24:05] Rene: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I love that you're just so curious. I love a good resource recommendation too, because I think it's, it's so helpful to be able to, you know, learn something from someone else, and especially people that you enjoy learning from. So that's very cool. 

[00:24:19] Actually wanted to ask about the, the workshops. Are you selling recordings to the workshops afterwards or is it just the workshop live? That's the cost and then it's over. 

[00:24:33] Kim: When I pivoted in 2018 to Kim Doyal and I went all in with content that was kind of, you know, I did a, a course called Everything is Content. And I did those live and I like to do stuff live as a beta to get the feedback.

[00:24:47] Mm-hmm. And I get the language that people are using. I find out where they're struggling, I find out what makes sense, and then I can polish it, you know? Mm-hmm. And so, um, and so I kind of doubled down on content at the time, and then launch the first content planner, which was phenomenal. The whole experience was phenomenal.

[00:25:05] And my business partner, Jody Hirsh, amazing. It's just, she's got a full-time agency and it was just like, okay. This felt like it was a little, I think our second year was when Covid hit, you know, we'd had some phenomenal results with Facebook ads. We'd gotten up to spending a thousand dollars a day on traffic.

[00:25:20] Wow. It's nuts. But when you get that back, yeah. Why? You know, it's, yeah. Paid traffic is the way to scale, period. Unless you are gonna create massive content every single day. Um, but it's exhausting. Yeah. So, you know, so that was incredible. Um, but, and that was kind of the primary focus at that time. And so, but in the, on the side of it, so a couple of other things I did, this is when I'd really gotten into email marketing.

[00:25:46] I launched my newsletter, which started out as F* the Hustle. Now The Spark. Um, I'm almost at 150 issues and I've never missed a week. Nice. Which it's. That's like pat myself on the back. I'm proud. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And um, [00:26:00] but you know, so I, I did a few AI workshops in the last year, but in between there because of how much I believe in email marketing and whatnot.

[00:26:08] So this was the easiest thing I've ever sold and I threw it out there and I said, I'm looking for 10 people. I'm gonna do a cohort, it's called Email Insiders. We're gonna meet once a week. I wanna get you up and running with email. And that came from, um, a Black Friday, Cyber Monday offer. So we did it for the planner at the time.

[00:26:27] And this is something else I'll say, and I was gonna run a workshop with Jason Resnick and we canceled it, but, um, if you have products, bundle them. Don't just discount everything. Bundle 'em to get your cart value up. Okay. Even if you're discounting the products, but I highly recommend bundling it. Mm-hmm.

[00:26:42] So we were doing that for the first planner and I was like, well, okay, I'm splitting half of that revenue, let's not like neglect my own brand over here. Mm-hmm. Which is what allowed us to launch the planner in the first place. 'cause I had had a, a personal brand and so I went through and I offered, I do focus sessions, like a 90 minute focus session.

[00:27:02] And the thing about that is like, I'm always driving for people. Like I open docs, I open chat, whatever we're doing, I'm the one that's gonna just ask you questions and I go through and do the work. So I said, look, the price is going up to $397. You can, there's literally only 10 of these because it's my time and I sold all 10, like at $297 within a minute.

[00:27:20] Mm-hmm. But from those conversations I learned where people were struggling with email marketing and why they were not pulling the trigger. Mm-hmm. Or you know, so you get a lot of data every time you can interact with somebody. Mm-hmm. And so from there is when I launched the Email Insiders and that was a thousand bucks for two months.

[00:27:38] I sold 10 both times just with an email. Mm-hmm. No sales page, no big launch. I just said, hit reply, let's chat, let's go from there. And so, you know, I feel like I've kind of been finessing my way here to where I'm going now, and like the stuff that's up on the site now. So I did that, and then I did Hit Send, which was a 30 day challenge, like a cohort.

[00:27:58] Mm-hmm. Where you got an email [00:28:00] lesson every day. And I did a video. I gave them the swipe files, I explained the psychology behind each of those. And so I've got hits. And so you see they're not up on the site because I'm in the process of moving all of my products and all of the funnels into HighLevel.

[00:28:14] And I'll keep all my content on WordPress. And then I'm gonna streamline, because I've got a handful of different email products where mm-hmm. Here's your opt-in sequence, here's a sales sequence, here's a webinar sequence.

[00:28:25] Mm-hmm. And I always do video with them. 'cause I also believe that if you can listen to me explaining and walking you through why I use this as a subject line or what this makes somebody feel. Mm-hmm. You know, and again, I'm not a copywriter, but I know enough that I can help people who aren't doing it at all.

[00:28:42] Right. I wouldn't say I'm gonna go teach copy like Joanna. Um, but my point is that all of these are going into a community. That's it. Mm-hmm. And so other than a live workshop mm-hmm. My goal, you know, I may run a live workshop, but then the only way to get it is gonna be to join the community.

[00:29:00] Rene: Okay. So like a membership.

[00:29:02] Yeah. Mm-hmm. Where, okay, so stuff's in there and a little different thing. Okay. Yeah. What's the difference then? Yeah. Explain that then. How are you defining community versus membership? 

[00:29:12] Kim: So, and it's funny because, lemme tell you, I was incredibly resistant to communities. Um, I had a Facebook group that I had to archive.

[00:29:19] It's called content Creators. Wow. And I just got tired of that for, I, I put so much into that when I launched it. Mm-hmm. And I, we launched that, I launched that before we launched the first planner.

[00:29:30] Mm-hmm. Which is how we were able to launch the planner. Um, but, uh, I'm looking at this and here's where this came from. And I actually worked with a coach last year on launching a membership, but I just, there was, you know how you just, you're like, there's something missing and you can't put your finger on it.

[00:29:47] Mm-hmm. And I didn't know, and it was based on F* the Hustle. Which was fascinating. People totally get what F* the Hustle means. Mm-hmm. But I asked my list, I said, can you help me out? And it was said, does this resonate with you? If [00:30:00] so, yes. If not, why not? And I was floored how many people are like, I get it, but you're more positive than that.

[00:30:05] Or, I had a few people are like, I don't like the, you know, F word, even if it's just the word. And I'm like, well, mm-hmm. I can't help you with that. Um, but it also explained to me where my struggle was. Mm-hmm. And, and you know, I have a, I call her a mentor, but it's my therapist. I found like 20 years ago when I lost my husband.

[00:30:24] And she's always said to me, Kim you have this spark. You have this spark. And I went into ChatGPT man, and I just did this massive brain dump and it came up with The Spark. Nice. So that was really fun. Oh, nice. Yeah. Anyway, so a membership, because at the same time, like, I don't want to, I'm not gonna spend all week in a forum.

[00:30:40] I'm not gonna mm-hmm. Be free coaching question, whatever. So I'm like, massive value, but least input. And I know that sounds sleazy. Mm-hmm. But I'm just breaking it down for simplicity. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, I think gone are the days. Nobody wants to log into a course and be like, oh my God, I've got 500 modules to go through.

[00:30:59] This is gonna take me until next year to complete this. Right? Yes. So as I've done this pivot, and the podcast I published yesterday was amplifying women in a male dominated space. And this is not anti-men. I have tons of great male friends who do incredible things. I will always support and, and purchase and all those things.

[00:31:18] But you know, it's kinda like if you see a listicle or you see, I'm like, it's the same dude's over and over and over. Mm-hmm. And over and over and, and it's like it happened in the WordPress space, it happens in the internet marketing space. It happens in the creator space. And I'm like, this is making me ape shit.

[00:31:32] Where are the female newsletters? Mm-hmm. Like I could count on it like six, seven that I know of. Mm-hmm. And they're, they're really big. Or, but like in the creator or marketing space, all men. And I'm like, mm-hmm. What, what am I missing here? Yeah. Or is it just that I am in, you know, because it's, it's kind of that knowledge bias, right?

[00:31:51] You buy a white car, you see white cars everywhere. Yes. Yeah. And, and so I asked this question and I realized, I'm like, where is the space [00:32:00] for women to find joint venture partners, to find affiliates, to find newsletters that they can mm-hmm. Do swaps with, that they can do, um, you know, do an email drop or you say, look, how much would it cost for you to send an email just for me?

[00:32:13] Mm-hmm. Um, or you do referrals or you could become an affiliate for somebody, or you can look for podcast guests. And so that's gonna be a huge piece of this community. I want any woman with an online business, you can, I don't care if it's gardening, if it's marketing, if it's so whatever, cooking.

[00:32:28] Mm-hmm. But you can come in and say, this is how big my audience is. I'm looking for people to swap with or to grow with. Mm-hmm. Because here's the other thing I'm sure you're familiar with, like the Creator Network with ConvertKit or you've got all these referral programs and Jason Resnick is a dear friend of mine and I'm paying attention to who comes in through the Creator Network and who unsubscribes from the Creator Network.

[00:32:49] And I'm like, mm-hmm. It's such a cold recommendation because you figure they just opted into my list and I'm gonna recommend five people to you. And you're like, I don't even know you yet. Yeah, exactly. Right. So this is where I believe in paid traffic. I mean, I obviously control the follow-up sequence and how well I communicate.

[00:33:08] Like I had done another digital product and it was called Create an Email Experience. Mm-hmm. Because I'm like, here's the deal. I want people when they opt in and they get something to know who I am, who I serve, how I talk, what type of content I share. So I'm like, what if I just went crazy and went overboard and did video and, and and am constantly, you know, and they'll drop off at a certain point.

[00:33:33] Mm-hmm. If I'm like, look, I am super pro women. I'm not anti-men, but I wanna support as many female creators as I can. So the dudes will bounce unless they're marketing to women and they're smart, they pay attention. But it's, it's one of those things where, you know, you start looking at how do I get the right people?

[00:33:51] In front of me and who stays engaged. Like, I kind of get bummed when I don't get a response from my newsletter. Mm-hmm. I expect them now. Mm-hmm. And it [00:34:00] tends to be the same people, so I'm like, I need more of them. Yes. And so where I look at, okay, my content has to be more specific to them. Mm-hmm. My, and again, paid traffic I can target.

[00:34:11] I actually did a call with ConvertKit, um, where they were looking for feedback and they were doing research and stuff. They're like, look, 30 minutes of your time, we'll give you a hundred dollars Amazon card. I'm like, I'm in. And it was great because it's two women. And when you, as an example with the, with the Creator Network, you select, right?

[00:34:28] Yeah. Like digital marketing, whatever I said. Mm-hmm. I wanna know who their audience is though. Mm-hmm. Because men unsubscribe for me all the time. Mm-hmm. They just do, not all men. And I again, but I'm like, when I started saying, well, who buys from me? 95% of my customers are women. Mm-hmm. You know, I get 5% men buying.

[00:34:44] So I'm like, talk to them, target them, which I can very specifically do with paid traffic. Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:53] I can go in Facebook. Oh, that too. Yeah. I didn't even think of that. Yeah. I can say I want women, these ages, these interests, these countries.

[00:35:00] Yeah. I forgot. Mm-hmm. You know, so, 

[00:35:03] Rene: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Do you wanna talk any more about the content planner or the courses that you have or, or your plans?

[00:35:11] Kim: Yeah. Well, so we'll talk a little bit about the content planner. Okay. And so, um, so this is the second planner I've done, it's called Create It The Content Planner. And I wanted to integrate a little bit more of bigger picture goals, you know, so there's like, what do you hope to accomplish in a year? And you kind of reverse engineer it.

[00:35:28] And then the difference with this strategy also is we talk about evergreen content, batching content and platform specific content. Ooh, good. 'cause what's gonna perform here, you know, like when I post that question about where the email newsletters, I posted it to Twitter, I don't have a huge following.

[00:35:44] Mm-hmm. But I've got like 19,000 people in there. Mm-hmm. I posted it to, I got like two or three responses on Twitter. I posted on LinkedIn, I got one spam comment, I posted it on my personal profile on Facebook and I got like 25 responses. So wow. This idea that Facebook is dead [00:36:00] is wrong. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's just, I'll be wherever people, my audience is.

[00:36:04] So with the planner, I wanted a little bit more of people who were saying, look, I like paper and pen.

[00:36:10] Yeah. I'm a content creator. I want to enjoy the process of creating however it needs to fit into my life. Like I'm a big believer in that. Like I love white space in my life. Part of it was like, I kind of felt like I wasn't done. We did the first planner and I'm probably more of an aggressive marketer than my business partner was. And so, but it's at the same time, I think there's a little level of kind of being burnt mm-hmm.

[00:36:35] On the content marketing space. Yeah. Just a little tired of it, you know? Um, where I'm ready to step into sort of a higher calling for my own individual purpose. So what we're doing, so with Create It, we have a newsletter. I don't know, there's like 6,500 people or whatever. My daughter actually writes a newsletter.

[00:36:51] She was, uh, she has a degree in screenwriting. She's gonna graduate school for something entirely different next year. But she's brilliant. She's worked with me since she was like 15. And so we started looking at this and, and I, you know, newsletters are huge for sponsorships and so the bigger the newsletter, you know, the bigger the sponsors.

[00:37:08] Mm-hmm. And so it's called Creators Weekly. She does a phenomenal job of it. We're starting to just finally push the, the social. It's taken a while. So, you know, we've got enough issues now of the newsletter and I said to her, I said, you know, I think that we can scale this.

[00:37:23] I think that if we focus on list growth mm-hmm. That it is the type of newsletter where we could get incredible sponsors. Yeah. And I said, what if we use the planner as a lead generator? Ooh, the cost acquisition. So where it's more of a free plus shipping. And the difference is, so like, I literally just got a video done for it, like a promotion video.

[00:37:45] Mm-hmm. We're gonna run ads. It's a free plus shipping, shipping and handling, but you're getting the entire ecosystem, I'm calling it where you get the physical, the digital, and the notion version. And the notion. Okay. That's cool. Mm-hmm. And the notion for like $15.95, right? Mm-hmm. So, I [00:38:00] mean, and that's more than shipping, but I'm like, I'm packing and dealing with all that right now.

[00:38:03] However, then the funnel. The upsell. What I did is I did a bonus course 'cause I pre-sold this planner to to, to the list and it was great, you know, so we pre-sold it. So everyone who bought in the pre-sale, I said, as a way to say thank you, I'm going to show you in 90 minutes how to create your entire 90 day content strategy with ChatGPT based on the, the nine steps of the planner.

[00:38:28] So that's gonna be the upsell. And then the goal is we have a continuity program called Content Snacks, where they're gonna get one deep dive and a content strategy a month for like 15, 16 bucks. It, it's gonna be super affordable, but I'm just really on this mission to master and figure out lead acquisition and recurring revenue.

[00:38:45] Yes. You know, it's like the digital product piece. Everything that I do, if, if it can't be evergreen and it can't be, you know, something that I can pull, repurpose, or touch, I'm like, just, it's not happening, you know? Mm-hmm. And so with the planner, I think seeing you're getting this physical planner just pay for shipping and, and it'll say normally it's the planner itself is 49 bucks.

[00:39:09] Yeah. And it also, I did a full free training course on that too, where I showed people how to fill it out and how each page mm-hmm. Leads to the next, there's nine steps. So, um, yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited about putting paid traffic behind it. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, my daughter's taken the social strategy, but it, but honestly, the goal is I want to see if I can scale it and sell it.

[00:39:30] Rene: Yes. I love it and I love the path that, that this leads to this and this leads to this and, and it, one thing I think that some people have concerns about is that like, when people come on the show, they're like, I have all this, but you didn't start with all that. You know, you started with one piece and then you built on this and you built on that, and you changed that, and you changed this.

[00:39:48] Like, it, you know, it comes over time. I think that we mm-hmm. That we kind of work on this. It's not just like a one and done and that's it. Like.

[00:39:56] Kim: I wish Yeah, yeah. Yes. You know? Well, no, but I'm, [00:40:00] but no, and I mean, I'm agreeing with you. It's like I have a friend that's spent literally, I found this space in 2006.

[00:40:05] I went to this thing called a Wealth Expo. Mm-hmm. Run by a learning annex at San Francisco. Okay. Crazy thing. The keynotes were Robert Kiyosaki, Tony Robbins and Donald Trump. We'll leave that alone. Whoa. But I went to this, um, breakout session, and there was this guy and my friend and I, for like 1500 bucks, bought his books and binders and CDs mm-hmm.

[00:40:25] Because he was making, I'm making like $8,000 a month on this ebook. And I was like, what? Ebook, what is it? The ebook thing. Right. And so I just have trusted the process and I wish I could tell you that I did. There's been plenty of times where it's like, oh my God, what am I doing? 'cause I never wanted to build websites.

[00:40:42] And I got into that and, but my friend, it's like, I can't tell you how many sites I put up for her. And she's a little bit of a technophobe. She's older than I am. And, but I'm like, you get clarity through the doing. Yes. You're not gonna know what you like, you're not gonna understand mm-hmm. What you're naturally inclined to do.

[00:41:00] You know? It's like mm-hmm. I never thought of myself as a writer. I could write a paper for school and do fine, but it wasn't until I launched my podcast and I'm like, girl, you better write this podcast out first. And I don't read it. But you hear how I talk, right? Yes. Well, you need some, we all you the 

[00:41:16] Rene: universal, you, you need some notes?

[00:41:18] Yeah. 

[00:41:19] Kim: Right. You know, and so I'm like, you are gonna lose complete track. And I've tested recording in the car and it gets a little bit squirrely, just like for shits and giggles. Yes. But, but, so I fell in love with the process of writing. Mm-hmm. I fell in love with this, like, you know, and, and again, it's probably as like, you know, you get a little bit older, I enjoy just getting lost in creating content.

[00:41:42] Mm-hmm. I enjoy getting lost in the work. I enjoy spending an entire Monday to write a podcast episode, record it, and then make sure it's formatted and do mm-hmm. I have the social, or you know, now I'm doing the video and then I'm chopping up the video into shorts. Yes. And so it's like, oh yeah, I like that.

[00:41:58] We forget, you know, [00:42:00] it's like we forget. It's who we become in the process mm-hmm. Of focusing on mastery. And there's such this, I got goosebumps it, but it, it, there's such this need to produce and publish and have these phenomenal launches and stuff. There are people. Quick little story, and I know I'm rambling, but there's, so I have a dear friend, I met her in a mastermind 2015, 2016.

[00:42:23] Mm-hmm. And she's just my hero. Her name is Mariza Parra. And at the time when we connected, she was doing list building and all this stuff, and had had other businesses. She, she had gone into some other programs and what she really loved doing was doodling and she does watercolors and journaling and stuff.

[00:42:41] And so she went live every Sunday for like a year, and it was called Heart Work Journaling. She took all of those lives. She published a book. From there she was like, you know, because we were both going through the same thing of like, Jody and I had hired two different ad agencies. One did well, one I like, I'm on a mission to master paid traffic myself.

[00:43:02] Mm-hmm. I'm tired of paying agencies and then waiting for creative for three weeks anyway. Mm-hmm. So, but Mariza was like, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna figure this out. So, and it was the fall of 2020 I think, when she finally launched Heart Work Journaling University. And she was told, you're not gonna be able to make money with that.

[00:43:19] You need to stick with the list building stuff. You need to stick with the business sales stuff. Do you know any like doodle lists? Like I'm on a sketchbook list, I'm on another doodle list, you know? And so anyway, so she did it and like her first launch outta the gate was like $45,000 and she made money on her, her Facebook ads because she was committed.

[00:43:38] She tuned everything out. She got mm-hmm. Laser focused from there. Yeah. She's now added a certification program where she's got like therapists and social workers who Wow. Gets certified to teach heartwork journaling. And this is all public in a podcast, so I'm not like spilling all this. Um, but she did half a million dollars in sales last year.

[00:43:56] That's amazing. You know, not so it's, [00:44:00] it's just not for nothing. So it's just this incredible focus and I want people to hear me that it's taken me 15 years to say, what do I want? What do I want? I'm gonna launch this community. There will be a group coaching, and then mm-hmm. Like I am hosting a first in-person retreat in Costa Rica in October.

[00:44:17] Woo. It was like an excuse to go back. Nice. Awesome. And, and it's like barely marketed it, but enough people know me and I have enough relationships. I mean, we sold out four spots instantly, and I've got a friend coat and I'm like, well, it's paid for. I said, I don't care if we have more or not, let's just get photos.

[00:44:32] Let's get the curriculum down. Mm-hmm. It's all a write off, you know? So that's it. That's all I'm gonna do for Kim Doyal. Yeah. And I'm gonna keep creating content and connecting. Mm-hmm. And then for the planner, I'm like, that's it. We can grow the list. And if we can make money off this free plus shipping with the upsell.

[00:44:47] Mm-hmm. And the continuity. I'm like, that's it. I will or keep ordering these planners 12 ways sideways. Mm-hmm. I'll do the same thing for, I'll test a free plus shipping and I don't, like, I didn't pull this planner out of thin air. Right. There's value. Right. I'm not like, here's a blank journal, get it for free.

[00:45:01] Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. I would do something that's a strategy. Um, but again, there's that higher perceived value. I'm gonna ship you something physical and then what happens is when people get physical stuff, what do we do? We take pictures of it. We take Yes, exactly. 

[00:45:16] Rene: Mm-hmm. What I just got. Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:19] Kim: Yes. Yep. You know, and so, but that's it.

[00:45:21] I'm like, okay, Kim, that is it. Those are the two models you're doing. You're not touching it. What I would add to, so it's the Spark Collective is coming, but, and I'm reigning myself in, so maybe next year. Are you familiar with HighLevel?

[00:45:36] Rene: I've heard of it, but I have not used it myself.

[00:45:39] Kim: I had looked at it years ago. And I was like, Ugh. Like I'm not a spreadsheet person. Mm-hmm. And when a UI looks like it's, you know, Microsoft circa 1995, I get like, oh my God. Make it pretty, it's not hard to make it pretty. Right, right. Well, I I jumped into it again last year and I was like, oh my God, they have totally improved the ui and, but you can actually [00:46:00] resell HighLevel.

[00:46:00] And so for 97 bucks, I, and they keep adding features and the price doesn't go up. Mm-hmm. But I have both my brands in there. I can have all my products. They've just added communities. They're adding full e-commerce stores like Shopify. And I'm like, nice. So what I can do though, I'm like, maybe next year there'll be another level of membership where people can have the software.

[00:46:22] Mm-hmm. You know, and, and so they get their own HighLevel account, but I'll rebrand it and you can white label it and do all this. So, I mean, and again, I would only do that because there are companies, believe this or not, is I think there's a company called Extendly where they provide all your support.

[00:46:38] Ooh, you sell the software and they're like, we're your support team. And I'm like, nice. Right? Yeah. Which is why they're blowing up. So, but I, I, you know what it is, and I'm gonna go sideways here, and I know I'm rambling, but it's okay. There was a book, there was a book that changed everything for me. I went in May, I went to dear friends that, um, one's gonna Costa Rica with me, but we've been friends online and we actually went and met on the Oregon coast for a weekend, little mastermind.

[00:47:02] Mm-hmm. It was so lovely to meet in person. And, um, but I was able to drive from Northern California just because it's just, I like the time in the car. Audiobook. Yeah. And I was listening to a book called Be Your Future Self Now by Dr. Benjamin Hardy. And. Something just clicked. You know how like when the students mm-hmm.

[00:47:20] ready the teacher appears. Yes. I came home and I wrote a letter from my future self. This was May, so I wrote a letter dated December 31st, 2023. And it started out with, girl, you are not gonna believe what we've accomplished this year. Mm-hmm. So that set the tone and I went through all these different categories, and then I realized he's got all these other books.

[00:47:38] He's written 'em with Dan Sullivan. One is called 10x is Easier Than 2x. It's like, look, you need big goals, you need big whys. Mm-hmm. And then you focus, I mean, girl, I, I have this little journal I've been writing in for almost 90 days now. Every day I have three things.

[00:47:53] At end of the day, three things I'm grateful for. What were three wins today and what are three things I'm gonna accomplish tomorrow? And I do this religiously. I've gotten out of [00:48:00] bed to do it, and it's simple. Like I go into mm-hmm. Massive resistance. When someone tells me, you gotta put your life in Notion.

[00:48:07] I'm like, no, I don't. It's, I don't, I don't want any tool that feels like a parttime job. Mm-hmm. I don't wanna schedule to feel like, you know, I'm recording every little thing. And so I just kept looking for the thing that resonated with me. Mm-hmm. Um, and for whatever reason, Ben Hardy's work it, none of it's like incredibly new or life altering.

[00:48:25] But again, I was ready to hear the message and I'm focused and putting the time and energy into focusing and like setting up simple habits. My newsletter last week though, the subject line was, what do you really want? You know? Mm-hmm. I, I think we get caught up, you know?

[00:48:40] And I've had enough heartache in my life. I mean, I was widowed at 32 and it was like, I knew, I'm like, I have to find something to do from home to be there for my kids. Mm-hmm. And then my mom passed away four years ago. Totally unexpected. It was just devastating. And it was like, mm-hmm. Life is too frigging short.

[00:48:56] What do you want? And so I think we can design our businesses around that. You know, if you don't want a business, if you don't wanna be on social, you really don't have to. There's plenty of ways to drive traffic if you don't wanna be on camera, you don't have to. If you wanna connect, go for it. And, and just be unapologetically yourself.

[00:49:14] Rene: I totally agree. I think that a lot of times we listen to all those shoulds, you should do this, you should do that, you should do this, and then you don't end up doing it. But if you kind of just carry it around with you as like a weight on your shoulders that you should be doing this thing and then you could just be doing something else.

[00:49:30] Especially I think as freelancers, um, you know, or, or solo business owners or you know, small agencies like you. If I feel kind of passionate about this, like. If you're just gonna be miserable, just go work for somebody else. It's easier to do. Or you could guarantee paycheck. Exactly. And health insurance and all the 401k, all this stuff.

[00:49:48] Like, I think you, you just owe it to yourself even more if you're going to work for yourself to do it well. To figure it out to, you know, like I, I love the simple habits thing, like, you know, find and find the things that work for you. [00:50:00] Like, I, I can't remember what book it was or, but it was talking, talked about the, the key, finding a key.

[00:50:05] So, you know, each new book you read or each new audio thing you listen to or whatever, you know, there might just be one thing in there that is a key that just clicks all of the other things that are already in there in place that you can kind of take the next step and, and looking at other people's frameworks and.

[00:50:21] Keep looking, you know, you'll find the thing that works for you and you can find a thing that works for you.

[00:50:25] Don't have to do it a certain way. Like you mentioned, you don't like video, don't do video because you're not going to want to do it. And putting that on yourself that like, you have to do it this way, or you have to do video. It's just going to create all this resistance in you and take up all this mental space too that, you know, is, is not good for you.

[00:50:41] Kim: And at the same time, you do have to do the work. Yes. You know? Exactly. Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:45] Rene: But it's fun to do. Created this. If it's something you want to do, like 

[00:50:49] Kim: I think if it's something you wanna do. Mm-hmm. And, but I created this, um, something Mari Maritza taught me 'cause I coached with her last year to launch a membership.

[00:50:57] I'm like, I'm gonna do exactly what she tells me to do. Mm-hmm. And it was coming up with sort of proprietary terms and frameworks. Like, I dunno if you ever watch Shark Tank, you know, Kevin O'Leary is always like, what's proprietary about that? What's proprietary about that? Yeah. Anyways, one of the terms I came up with though, and it, and it's, it's like one of the early stages of business is false priorities.

[00:51:14] It's very easy to mm-hmm. Be like, oh, well I need to read this, or I need to do this, or I got the software and I need to figure it out. I'm all, if it's not gonna bring you customers or sales. Mm-hmm. How much of a priority is that? You know, it was kinda like, like I can, I've set up the majority of HighLevel for my stuff, but I'm like, oh my God, I have like five products I need to move over there. 

[00:51:33] I'm all, what are you doing? I'm all, what are you doing? There's literally a Facebook group Go HighLevel Jobs. And freelancing. I had to shut off comments 'cause I got so many replies within like five minutes. 

[00:51:43] I have a designer and a programmer that have worked with me mm-hmm. Since probably 2012. Mm-hmm. So, like, I totally believe in outsourcing, whatnot. But you get to a point where I'm like, okay, I'm completely being the obstacle here. Yes. I need, mm-hmm.

[00:51:57] I don't. So a false priority is me telling [00:52:00] myself, Kim, you need to go download it and move it. I'm like, no I don't. No I don't. That is not a good use of my time or getting someone else to publish all of my newsletters mm-hmm. Into WordPress. I'm like, I'm so many behind. 'cause I'm like, it's content and I'm not gonna not do it.

[00:52:13] Mm-hmm. But it's like, I don't wanna do it anymore. 

[00:52:16] Rene: Yeah, exactly. The delegating and the support. Yeah. Anything that is, yeah. Either doing something for you or helping someone get to the next level. Someone shared like just the support that she needed to get to the next step, you know, and just having that, it's like therapy, right?

[00:52:30] Like, you know, and just these things that, even like I'm in physical therapy right now, like, we just need people to help us do another thing. We, we can't, we're not just going to do it all on our own. Like maybe we think we can, but I don't think that's gonna be, I don't think it's realistic. Or enjoyable.

[00:52:46] Kim: It's not fun. We're, we're, yes. You know, we're here to connect and collaborate, right? And all of that at the same time. You're the only person. Like, it's funny, like people, I don't know why, like when I was in Costa Rica, everyone's like, what do you do? I'm like, I work like, you know, like my neighbors and stuff.

[00:53:01] And I mean, I would take the dogs down and whatnot, but I'm like, I'm at my desk for the most part. Mm-hmm. Monday through Friday. Friday maybe till 12. Mm-hmm. But I'm like, There's days where it's shorter. I control my schedule, but I work best with structure. I know how mm-hmm. I work. Right. So, but I'm disciplined enough to go, I need to figure this out.

[00:53:18] Mm-hmm. Or I need to do this, and I set up accountability. If I publicly announce something, okay. Mm-hmm. It's gonna happen. Right. Or my mentor, like, like for a long time when I was still doing websites, you know, it was like I knew I should, I could not do client work before noon because it derailed my day.

[00:53:36] Mm-hmm. If I got into client work, there was no way I was gonna work on my business. I wasn't gonna create content, I wasn't going to work on my own stuff. And so I would do a check-in with her every week. This is how my week went. This is how, and she was, she's amazing. Right. So it's like, find those people, and I've done that with some friends it works, other friends, it doesn't.

[00:53:53] Mm-hmm. You know, you let each other off the hook and it's like, yes. That, you know, so you don't wanna be mean. You have Right. Yeah, you don't wanna be mean [00:54:00] and you know, so you just, you you figure out. But it's like you don't stop. Like, I remember. Mm-hmm. Not that I'm into Tony Robbins anymore, but I was totally into all that stuff.

[00:54:08] He was my first self-help at like 22. I got his personal power tapes off the infomercial. And, but it was like, he said one time, it was like, how long are you gonna give your average baby to walk? How long, how long before you say, sit down you little dummy, you're not gonna learn to walk. You don't, you can keep, keep going.

[00:54:25] Yes. We figure it out. So this idea, and even if you've had an offline business, the internet is different and mm-hmm. Or finding out that the only way to differentiate yourself is to be you. Is to be you. We, you know, there's plenty of people who do what I do, but there's only one me. Mm-hmm. So you've gotta have courage and faith to show up.

[00:54:45] Rene: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And what's enjoyable for you? And then something else, just back to the accountability. Like sometimes that's enjoyable for those people. So letting them help you is actually enjoyable for them. Or, you know, outsourcing certain things, it's actually enjoyable for them. That's not enjoyable for you.

[00:55:01] So, yeah. I think, you know, going in alone is not, not going to be super successful. 

[00:55:06] Kim: Now, did you ever find that you can be in a mood? Honestly, I'm gonna be super, super direct with you. And that today was one of those, I was so productive yesterday and today I am like, nah. I was just like, like, and I've got plenty of things to do.

[00:55:19] Mm-hmm. And I'm like, thank God we had this call because it lifted my energy and it was fun to connect with you. Mm-hmm. And I appreciate it. And I, and I'm honored to be asked and stuff and so, you know, our feelings aren't always great indicators. Yes. So sometimes when you're in, you've gotta get out of your own way.

[00:55:33] Right. Which means talking to other humans and engaging and connecting too. 

[00:55:37] Rene: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I agree a hundred percent. Anything else, I guess, any last things you wanna say before you give us some advice for people creating their first product? Like anything else that maybe we didn't touch on? 

[00:55:48] Kim: Um, you know, this is supposed to be fun. I, I really believe this, you know, like, I don't know if it'll be up there by then since I'm getting back in the video, but I had done a, um, like a manifesto [00:56:00] PowerPoint animated to music, like on my YouTube channel, which is just Kim Doyal.

[00:56:04] But it was like, and this was still when I was the WordPress chick, and I literally wrote, if it's not fun, I'm not doing it. Mm-hmm. And, and I. Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of tasks that I don't, aren't like woo that was a blast, you know? Yes. There is this element, and I don't grasp quantum physics or anything, but time is holistic, you know, it expands and contracts, like if you have a list of 52,000 things, you're gonna, the day is gonna go like this, right?

[00:56:28] Mm-hmm. And, but if I'm like, okay, well I have one more thing to do on my list today, you know, and so I'm like, God, okay. And it's just you have to enjoy this journey otherwise. Mm-hmm. Like what are your, your point of go get a job then, you know, get a job. Yeah. Um, but I just have fun with it, and I think be easy about it.

[00:56:47] And if something doesn't feel right, you have to really be willing to get honest with you, with yourself and say, mm-hmm am I just not willing to do this? Do I not understand it? Mm-hmm. Or, and I'm telling you, having a big goal, I set a huge goal for myself three years from now. I set another one for next fall and totally changed my attitude.

[00:57:09] Mm-hmm. And I, mm-hmm. I have read, I mean, Zig Ziglar, Brian Tracy, like all those motivational sales guys right. From the eighties and nineties. Yep. All of them. But for whatever reason and where I'm at in my life and whatever, it resonates with me. I am a consumer of content because it's fuel for me. I don't stop and get derailed, but I'm like, to your point, if I can learn one nugget mm-hmm.

[00:57:29] Or something shifts. So you have to find those things that fuel you. And you are supposed to enjoy this. It's supposed to be fun. 

[00:57:35] Rene: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So do you have any other advice and maybe a little bit more specific advice for the products? Oh, yes. I mean, those are, those are good pieces of advice.

[00:57:45] Kim: Yes. Um, um, don't overthink it. I love doing a beta test. Mm-hmm. So I highly mm-hmm. I would do, uh, this is, this is half, this is 50% off because I want your feedback. I'm gonna do it live with you, whatever. I love the beta test because you can then take the language. People will [00:58:00] tell you yes.

[00:58:00] You'll get questions from people. So now all of a sudden you're like, oh, that's a good, that could be a headline, right? Mm-hmm. One, I love beta testing. Don't spend months planning this. Mm-hmm. You're so much better off. Or create the sales page and see and get it validated. Mm-hmm. You know, I did this with a friend recently.

[00:58:15] We had like one person buy, we're like, let's let, we're done. Like, we're not gonna create this thing now. It didn't work. Mm-hmm. It depends. Like I have enough stuff with like email that I know that it's all validated, so if I wanted to pivot it, I could. Mm-hmm. And the other piece really is learn how to write well for the web under mm-hmm.

[00:58:31] Pay attention to copywriting, pay attention to sales. You have to be able to market and sell your stuff. Mm-hmm. Because there's, there's way more crappy products out there by people who know how to sell. Then there are amazing products than people who don't know how to sell because they don't ever see the light of day because they already didn't get in front of enough people.

[00:58:49] Mm-hmm. You know, you, and you have to be able to, to ask for the sale. So pull the trigger. Don't overthink it. Especially when you do the beta, people aren't expecting Yes. Massive polish, right? Mm-hmm. Like you can use Google Docs and just Zoom and you're good to go. Mm-hmm. Um, and, but if, and then writing, learn to write copy, email.

[00:59:08] Email is the one traffic channel you own. It should be a priority to learn how to sell with email. A hundred percent. 

[00:59:14] Rene: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I love email. Um, I, it feels so much more intimate too. Like you're actually having a conversation with someone instead of like social media. It's like you walk into a room and you just kind of shout something and like, if somebody hears it great and yeah.

[00:59:25] Is anybody here or they're all paying attention to each other? I don't know. Yeah. I'm not a huge fan of social media, but anyway, um, yeah. Thank you so much. Do you wanna tell people where they can find you online? Um, or your products? 

[00:59:37] Kim: Yeah. Uh, kimdoyal.com and the best thing to do is, is get on the newsletter, The Spark, it goes out every Thursday.

[00:59:43] Um, the products will be shifting and stuff, so that's that. Uh, and then Create It Company is the planner, so createitcompany.com. And so get on that list. And then I'm KimDoyal on Social everywhere. Excellent. D-O-Y-A-L.

[00:59:57] Rene: Excellent. Yeah. And all that'll be in the show notes, and I'll comb [01:00:00] through all this and put all the links and everything to everything we talked about too.

[01:00:02] So I think it'll be a long but nice and juicy. I love juicy show notes myself. Yeah, me too. Me too. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here today. 

[01:00:11] Kim: Thank you, Rene. This was great. And thanks for letting me ramble at you. 

[01:00:14] Rene: Yeah, no, I like it. I like it a lot. 

[01:00:15] Hey, thanks for listening. I'd love to continue the conversation in your inbox. Email SUBSCRIBE to hey at yfdp.show or sign up in the show notes to get bimonthly emails about how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. Can't wait to see you there.