Turning her lead magnet into a paid product with Hollie Arnett

[00:00:00] Hollie: I just am like a big believer in the fact that like, no matter whatever's out there, no one has your voice or like nobody is you. So even if somebody has put something out there already, you should still do it because you have your own unique spin or your own unique perspective or your own unique experience or whatever that you can bring to that thing.

[00:00:21] So even though, yes, there are other branding checklists out there, mine comes with its own perspective or my own way of writing that might help somebody understand it in a different way or my unique way of structuring things like it just might be slightly different to someone else's so just always do it, even if it's already out there.

[00:00:42] Rene: Hey everyone. Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed-out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing one-on-one work and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. I'm your host, Rene Morozowich. Let's go. 

[00:01:10] Hey, everybody. Today I'm here with Hollie Arnett and Hollie is a brand strategist and coach for creatives and she's on a mission to help creators build their brand, grow their audience, and share their work with the world. Hey, Hollie, how are you? 

[00:01:23] Hollie: Hi, I'm so good. Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:01:26] Rene: Yeah, I'm so excited that we were able to connect and do this. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about you? 

[00:01:31] Hollie: Yeah, for sure. So yeah, as you said, I'm a brand strategist and coach for creatives. I am a creative myself. And so I've started my journey as an artist and then that kind of developed and pivoted and, you know transformed as it does into what I do now, but my love of creatives and helping and collaborating and working with creatives has never changed. 

[00:01:55] And so yeah, I just love working with them and helping them achieve their dreams of [00:02:00] like just being able to create more and being able to do that through having a brand that lets them do that.

[00:02:05] So yeah. 

[00:02:08] Rene: That's awesome. How long have you been doing that?

[00:02:10] Hollie: I've been doing that now for three years, probably. I've had my business for six years now, but it started as a hand lettering. Yeah. Which then kind of turned into doing like hand lettering logos, which then turned into doing brand identities. Which then turned into doing brand strategy, which then turned into doing brand strategy and coaching, which is what I do now.

[00:02:34] So it's been like a journey. 

[00:02:36] Rene: Yeah. I love it. I love it. 

[00:02:38] Hollie: Yeah. Yeah. But I'm still that like typography, hand lettering, artist and nerd at heart. That's something I like will always love and one day would like love to get back to doing that as my own like art practice. But yeah, it's just has led me to this beautiful place that I am at now and I just don't want to stop doing this either.

[00:02:58] So yeah. 

[00:02:59] Rene: Yeah. It's amazing to be able to help people do what they want to do and share their gifts with the world. Like I think it's really cool. 

[00:03:06] Hollie: Yeah, for sure. That makes my heart so happy. 

[00:03:09] Rene: Yeah, that's good. And it's nice to wake up, like, people talk about, like, the Sunday scaries, like, you know, that feeling.

[00:03:15] I don't know if you've ever had that feeling, like, on a Sunday. I definitely have. On a Sunday when you're like, oh no, Monday's coming. And it's nice to not have that. Like, it's nice to just be like, it's another day. 

[00:03:26] Hollie: Yeah, for sure. Part of my job as a brand strategist is helping people figure out, like, their why.

[00:03:32] And that's like, I love that I know my why so much is like, so much is of it is that I believe so strongly in like creativity and the power of creativity and how much we personally need creativity and also like the world needs creativity. And so for me, that's such a like driving factor. So even if I do get a little of the Sunday scaries or like just general business [00:04:00] scaries, I'm like.

[00:04:03] Well, it's like, that's what keeps me going because I'm like, all right, like, these creatives need me, the world needs these creatives and I need this. So yeah, it keeps me going for sure. 

[00:04:15] Rene: Yeah, I love that. That's so important.

[00:04:17] A lot of times we don't know, or we, we kind of have this like imposter syndrome type feeling. Of like, Oh, you know, why me? And I think that's just such a great testament. Like, you know, you're here to help people do what they love so that they can help other people. Like, you know, I think that's really powerful.

[00:04:34] Hollie: Yeah, I hope so.

[00:04:36] Rene: Awesome. Well, let's talk about digital products because that's what I love to talk about. So I know you have a couple products up now. I didn't, I, I'm not sure exactly how many you have, but tell us all about them, but tell us specifically about the first one, like the first one that you launched.

[00:04:49] What was it? What problem did it solve? Who is it for? Is it still alive? All that good stuff. 

[00:04:55] Hollie: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I have a, a bunch there now. But the first product that I ever launched was, is actually, or was actually free. It's not, well there's a few versions of it now, a free version and some paid versions.

[00:05:08] But it's called the Ultimate Branding Checklist. Okay. And when I launched it, I launched it for a few different reasons. One is that I just knew I had like, all this knowledge that I had shared in like all these disparate places, like on social media and like Instagram posts or tweets or like, you know, all these different places.

[00:05:31] And still so much that was in my brain and I was like, I feel like if I could compile this all together, it would be so helpful. And also I'd seen like a bunch of other sort of branding checklists, but they were either like just focused on a segment of branding, like just the brand identity or maybe a little bit of strategy, but they've, I felt like they were missing so much of the whole [00:06:00] picture or they didn't explain anything.

[00:06:02] And so I was like looking at all these other options and being like, this is so frustrating. I'm frustrated as like a branding expert. And I could imagine if I was looking for branding information. I would be frustrated because this wouldn't be the complete picture, but then maybe people wouldn't know that.

[00:06:20] And so I was like, I need to fill in that gap and be like, this is the complete picture. This is the actual ultimate branding checklist. Like these other ultimate lists or complete lists or whatever are not complete lists. They're missing like all this information and all this context and all this like backstory and everything about branding.

[00:06:42] And so it's designed for people who are like DIYing their branding. So doing it themselves and maybe just getting started or they've just started their business and want to work on their brand, but don't know where to start or don't know what they need to be doing or need to be working on and maybe need some help understanding what goes into building a brand.

[00:07:05] So that's what the checklist is. It started off as just a PDF Like portrait PDF download. And yeah, it did super well. Like even I had that original version that launched in 2019 up until last year. So three years of just the same PDF and it got over like a thousand downloads, I think. So yeah.

[00:07:30] And like, that's like. Was more than half of my email list at that point came from that checklist. So yeah, it's pretty good. 

[00:07:40] Rene: That's awesome. So I have lots, I have lots and lots of questions. So I think it's super interesting that you looked at other checklists. Because I think sometimes what happens is that, you know, we're thinking about doing a product or a thing, or we think, you know, we have something and we go to look at what's out there and then immediately feel like this.

[00:07:59] Like, [00:08:00] oh, they've been doing it longer. They've been they look like they have more audience or more design or whatever, whatever. And I love, love, love that you were like, no, no, no, all of these are inferior. I will put together one that is superior. It will be the real ultimate. I love that. That is so awesome.

[00:08:20] Hollie: Also, I just am like a big believer in the fact that like, no matter whatever's out there, no one has your voice or like nobody is you. So even if somebody has put something out there already, you should still do it because you have your own unique spin or your own unique perspective or your own unique experience or whatever that you can bring to that thing.

[00:08:42] So even though, yes, there are other check branding checklists out there, mine comes with its own perspective or my own way of writing that might help somebody understand it in a different way or my unique way of structuring things like it just might be slightly different to someone else's so just always do it, even if it's already out there.

[00:09:04] Obviously don't copy things, but like, bring your own voice and way of doing things to something, even if somebody's already said it before, that's okay. 

[00:09:11] Rene: Right, yeah, I like, kind of think about it like teachers, you know, sometimes, like in school, you would have a teacher that you really connected with but other students, you know, maybe didn't have the same experience. We have the people who resonate with us, you know about the topic that we're talking about and yeah, so you are needed. Creating your product and getting it out there you know is needed for people.

[00:09:31] So you mentioned the DIY crowd. So a lot of people, I think, don't love to work with the DIY crowd. If you are a service provider and you work with clients one on one, the people who have that like lower budget and maybe want to DIY, they're known as more difficult clients.

[00:09:49] So do you find that like the the expectations of the DIY crowd and the price point that your products are, like, is all [00:10:00] acceptable? Do you find that people are like, hey, I need more, I want more? Or, you know, what is your experience, I guess, with working with, with a DIY crowd? 

[00:10:09] Hollie: I haven't... really had that experience yet.

[00:10:12] I have products that are available for different people. My DIY products are for those people who are, you have that smaller budget and I need kind of less or are ready for less like one on one support. And then I have kind of like more high touch, high cost one on one or like smaller group experiences that are for people who are ready for that.

[00:10:35] And so I haven't really had that kind of crossover experience too much, which is probably good. I don't know. But like I had an experience yesterday, which was amazing where I was on a call with somebody talking to them about working with me one on one. 

[00:10:50] And she said, one of the reasons that I was super excited to talk to you specifically is because you're so generous with the information that you have. She was really thankful that I had given her all this information already that she could, that she had used to DIY stuff or to learn or whatever. And now she's talking to me about working one on one. So like it, it works both ways I think.

[00:11:15] And doesn't, yeah, it doesn't have to be a bad thing, giving away things for people to do things themselves. And like part of the reason that I create a lot of these things for people to DIY is that I have this kind of like really strong belief that anything you do to work on your brand is amazing.

[00:11:39] And there's kind of like this in the branding industry in particular, there has been, I don't know if it's like not still there anymore, or maybe I just don't see it. Cause I kind of muted those people left that kind of sphere, but like there was kind of this attitude of like, you have to be spending tens of [00:12:00] thousands of dollars.

[00:12:01] Oh, and, and hiring somebody to do it for you. Otherwise it's not worthwhile or it's not good enough, or it's not going to last you, or it's not going to do the right job. And that just kind of annoyed me. I was like, yeah, like, yes, the, like the branding strategists and designers and like, you know, people like me deserve to be paid that money and like they're worthwhile and that's amazing.

[00:12:24] The people, not everybody can afford that or are in the position to do that or, you know they're starting their business or they don't have the privilege to be able to afford that or to be in that position. But that doesn't mean they can't do amazing things. That doesn't mean that we can't support them or give them tools that enable them to still move forward and to empower them to you know, take their own brand into their own hands and to do some awesome things.

[00:12:50] So I'm like, how can I best support you? Yes. You're not ready to work with me one on one, but what can I do to support you and to give you the tools to you know, set you out on your own journey to do, to do as much as you can, whether you come and work with me afterwards or not. So yeah, that's why I'm like, what, yeah, what can I do?

[00:13:10] How can I support you on your DIY journey as much as possible? So. Yeah, I get, I get a little raw, though. 

[00:13:17] Rene: That's good, though. That's good. We all were starting at one point and unless you came from, I don't know, maybe a career where you had banked all this money and then you started to, to be a creative and then you could afford that from the get go. Like, I feel like that's a minority.

[00:13:33] Most people, I think, do a lot of, like, bootstrapping at the beginning and, you know, you don't pay for things until you really need them just because, like, that's, you know, that's a, a fiscally responsible way to go about it in these types of careers, I think. So, yeah, I think having offerings for that DIY crowd is great.

[00:13:50] And then, yeah, maybe later or, in the meantime, you know, you stay in touch with them, maybe they're on your email list or they're getting more of your products, and then, yeah, maybe later they're ready to work with [00:14:00] you, and that's fantastic. 

[00:14:02] Hollie: Yeah, that's the best. 

[00:14:04] Rene: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it. 

[00:14:06] So you mentioned that you have both a free and a paid version of the checklist. Can you talk about that? 

[00:14:12] Hollie: Yes, for sure. So last year I launched the version 2.0 is what I called it of the checklist. So basically it was like a complete overhaul of the checklist. Well, pretty much a complete overhaul. So it was like, I took the content that was in there before I like rewrote all of it.

[00:14:30] So I added, added stuff, rewrote stuff with like all the new knowledge I'd learned in the past three years. Restructured a bunch of stuff based on like my new, like, I have like a framework of how I explain branding. I've redesigned the whole thing because I have a new brand identity now. 

[00:14:49] And so while I was doing that, I was like, okay, maybe I can also like relaunch it with some additional options to like add some more value to the checklist because I have a bunch of different resources that I think will elevate the experience of the checklist. So there are three paid versions of the checklist.

[00:15:12] So there's a starter version, which has template versions of the checklist built in like Notion and Airtable and Trello and also has a quiz. So you can take the quiz and it will tell you like where you are in your branding journey so that then you can look at the checklist and only focus on that part of the checklist.

[00:15:34] So Yeah. I thought it was very cool. Cause like the check, the checklist is like, it is a complete 100 percent like this is everything you could do in a branding project. So like it's quite a lot, which is cool, but it can be like, well, this is a lot. So the quiz is quite cool because it's like, okay.

[00:15:58] This is everything I could do, but what do [00:16:00] I actually need to focus on right now? Like if I'm in the phase where like my brand strategy is the most important thing I need to be doing, okay. This is the section of the checklist I should be focusing on. And the checklist is also ranked. And like, what are the things that are must haves, nice to dos, and like only worry about it if you have like loads of extra time.

[00:16:21] Rene: Okay, I like that. 

[00:16:22] Hollie: That you really want to be doing. So that's the starter version, that's only $30. So that's like a... upsell to the checklist. Then the standard version has all of that plus videos, like trainings. So for every section of the checklist, there is a training that teaches you about that section of the checklist about like what goes into it and how to do it and all of that stuff.

[00:16:44] And then the third tier is the strategy version, which is all of that plus a strategy session with me. So yeah, those are the three tiers. So I launched that and I've had like a few sales of the first two tiers and none of the last one um, so far but that's okay. But I, to be honest, haven't like pushed them as much as I would've liked to yet but yeah, I just thought it was like cool.

[00:17:12] Yeah. Way to like take the checklist to the next level. You can still download the checklist for free, just the PDF. And most people just do that. But yeah, if you want to kind of like take that learning to the next level and like really implement it or really learn or like dive a little deeper, there are these three other options too.

[00:17:29] So yeah. 

[00:17:31] Rene: Yeah, I like that. And I like that it really gives people the option on price too and commitment. So yeah, if they have time to watch the videos and if they want to work with you, you know, you have a lot of options in there, but it's, it's not just like four different products.

[00:17:47] You know, you didn't create just four separate things. You took something and then you built on it, built on it, built on it. And then people can pick where they are, what they need the most. 

[00:17:57] Hollie: Yeah, yeah. And I like, fully cannot take credit [00:18:00] for this. I um, it was fully inspired by Nathan Barry.

[00:18:03] He's the CEO of ConvertKit. I think the first digital product he ever launched was an ebook. And he did a similar thing and he wrote a Twitter thread all about how he kind of he was like, I missed out on $10,000 or something by not doing this. And so he was talking about how he added like.

[00:18:23] Packages to his ebook and did a similar thing. And so I was like inspired by that. And so props to Nathan. Because yeah, it's it makes sense. Like, yeah, people are downloading this freebie. And then if they find that really valuable or even before they've downloaded it, they're like, oh, well, yeah, I want to learn more.

[00:18:44] Or I already know that, like. I value Hollie's expertise and I know it's going to be good or whatever then they can invest in the higher tier options. So it makes a lot of sense, like just even just having them there, even if I don't push them, there's the option, right? Like someone might just land there and be like, Oh yeah, I'll do that.

[00:19:04] Yeah. 

[00:19:05] Rene: Yeah. Yeah. And from a logistics standpoint, so they go to download the checklist, are you saying, like, oh, hey, do you want these things before they download it, like a tripwire? Are you doing it then, or, and, or, I guess, do they download the checklist and then you, kind of, in your, like, email, follow up email sequence, are you saying those other things?

[00:19:25] Hollie: Yes, both. Yeah, so it's set up in Podia. So currently I host them in Podia. So on the Podia website, they're set up like on the page as options and then also like as upsells and then also in the email sequences after, like if somebody just downloads the free version, they will get an email that says like, Hey, did you know you could also get the templates and the quiz and the, all these other things that will help you like get more out of this checklist. So yes, both. [00:20:00] 

[00:20:00] Rene: I like it. Yeah, I like it a lot. And I think like, not to, not to like discourage people because that probably is a lot to set up, but just kind of like having that inspiration, once you launch your first thing, you can do these other things with it.

[00:20:13] You can add on to it. You can try to upsell it right away. You can, you know, nurture it in your sequence based on what people have done. Like there's a lot of options in there. And I, I think it's nice to hear people, you know, talking about the different things that they've done and the different paths that they've taken.

[00:20:29] Hollie: Yeah, for sure. And like, it doesn't have to be a lot to set up. Like, yes, it's a lot to set up because I have three different options. But like, if you just had one upsell, like say I just had the starter option. That wouldn't be too much to set up. Like, especially in Podia, if we use Podia, like an upsell is really easy to set up.

[00:20:48] And then in ConvertKit, like setting up a sequence is just like, you know, setting up three emails or whatever. It's super easy and then you do it once and it's set up forever. So I love that about email automations. I'm like, thanks the Lord. Yes. So, you know, I love the fact that it's just like you, yes, there's a little bit of like upfront work to do.

[00:21:14] But once it's done, it's, it's done and it's you don't have to touch it again unless you want to make it better. 

[00:21:21] Rene: Yes, yeah, and ideally you don't touch it, and yeah, ideally you're not, like, messing with it all the time, like, yeah, you want to give it a chance to do its thing. Give it a chance to run and, you know, see what's happening and kind of get that feedback later.

[00:21:33] Yeah, I think some people are, like, they launch and then they're, like you just, you know, kind of like helicoptering around it, like, just let it go, like, let, you know, obviously market it, don't just not talk about it, but yeah, you know, let it run, like, let it, you know, let it do its thing. 

[00:21:46] Hollie: Collect the data.

[00:21:47] Rene: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Whenever you decided that you wanted to create that checklist, did you just, like, sit down and knock it out and then, you know, get it up right away? A lot of people kind of, like, overthink it or they're [00:22:00] like, oh, I don't know how to do this or, like, what about, like, the creation process and, like, the launch process?

[00:22:05] Do you have any thoughts about, I guess, what happened for you?

[00:22:10] Hollie: Yeah, I find, like, the ideation process not a problem for me. I can think about, like, 1 million ideas for you tomorrow. That's like, it's a problem in itself. I have too many ideas. The like I found the checklist.

[00:22:28] I keep putting off writing it. I don't know why, like I actually love writing. It's something that like actually before I decided to get into design, which is what I trained in. I thought I was going to be an English teacher or like something to do with writing. I loved writing. I write blogs, I've done guest blogging and stuff like, I just, I love writing.

[00:22:47] So I don't know why when it came to the checklist, I was procrastinating. Yeah. I don't know whether it was like, I just wanted it to be right or be good or like putting my expertise out there. And so felt like it had to be a next level or something. I don't know.

[00:23:09] And it's weird because I put blog posts out there and don't have that same problem. 

[00:23:14] That's weird, but I managed to do that. So that was good. And then, I like quite like marketing, so I don't really have a problem with that.

[00:23:23] I think like, I weirdly have, I find it easier marketing free things which I probably isn't that weird. That's probably normal. Like I can tell you about the ultimate branding checklist freebie 1 million times, but telling you to pay 30 for the starter version. Yeah. Less so. Yes. I talk about that a lot less.

[00:23:46] But, yeah, so there's probably like some money mindset or whatever things going on behind the scenes to do with that. 

[00:23:54] Rene: Everybody, yeah. 

[00:23:55] Hollie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's also like, part of that is also strategic because [00:24:00] I use the free version to get people on my email list. So like I do talk about the free version a lot because that grows my email list.

[00:24:08] There's an interesting strategic situation there. That's probably a summary of the creative process of getting it out there. The, the writing is probably the hardest part, the latest one, especially like being so thorough, like it actually is quite long.

[00:24:26] So like, it, it wasn't just like, you know, one page with like 10 bullet points. It's like 30 pages of like actual paragraphs of information. I like pride myself on good quality, you know, so I really wanted to do a good job. And so the yeah, I wanted to, I wanted to sit down and like, make sure I was doing focusing on it and doing a really good job and writing good, useful, informative, well explained things that were actually going to be really helpful.

[00:24:56] So, yeah. 

[00:24:57] Rene: Yeah. Nice. How did you pick Podia? Were you already using it for something else? Or did you just kind of like look around and you're like, I picked this one? 

[00:25:04] Hollie: I wasn't using Podia in the beginning. I think I was hosting, the checklist just directly and ConvertKit in the beginning.

[00:25:12] But then I actually started launching more digital products. So like paid products, I want to say a couple of years ago. And so I needed like a shop. Like a shop front that I could host all of my products and have like a full site where I could make like discounts and all of that stuff. And this was before ConvertKit's Commerce came out which I maybe would use now, but even that doesn't have like a shop front per se yet.

[00:25:42] And so. When I set that up through Podia, that's when I, then when I launched the version two of the ultimate branding checklist, I then moved it to Podia and set up all the different versions on there. So yeah, that's how I started using, using that. And it has like I chose [00:26:00] that as well because it has good integrations with ConvertKit, which I'm using for my email marketing and stuff.

[00:26:04] And like, it has a really easy to use shop front and like, I just, the UI and stuff's really easy to use. So yeah, that's why I started using that. 

[00:26:13] Rene: Yeah. It's really important that the things work together with things that you're already using. So if you're already using ConvertKit, yeah. Picking something that like really painstakingly will get your buyers over to that, like that's no good.

[00:26:24] Yeah. So definitely picking something that is easy to use and nice and smooth and simple, like that's the best. 

[00:26:31] Hollie: From what I have experienced and kind of heard, like, I think it's pretty easy to use from the customer's perspective too. That's really important for me as well. And so like that makes me happy.

[00:26:44] Yeah, I'm happy with that. 

[00:26:45] Rene: Yeah, I like it. Very cool. 

[00:26:46] So do you want to tell us about some of your other products that you have out now and then maybe the next one or kind of just like all of them together or, you know, what other things do you have to offer? 

[00:26:57] Hollie: Yeah, for sure. So I have five others now and then three of those can also be bought in a bundle.

[00:27:05] So the. Those three that I just mentioned were the next ones that I launched. So they are called the Creator Clarity Bundle. So you can buy them separately or as a bundle. For writing your mission, your vision and your values. So they're just like a collection of resources. They each have a guide and a workbook and some like examples to help you do that.

[00:27:28] So they're just, yeah. A collection of resources, and then you can buy them as a bundle. So that's awesome. And then I have a the brand strategy kit for creators. And that is a basically a brand strategy template, which also guides you through creating your brand strategy. So it has like an example brand strategy through it, and it has tips about creating your brand strategy.

[00:27:50] And it's a Canva template where you can put your own brand strategy into there. So that's pretty cool. And then I have Pinpoint Your People. So that is again, like a course and [00:28:00] a collection of resources that helps you to find like uncover and understand and engage your ideal audience. It's probably the one that I'm like the most proud of right now.

[00:28:11] It has just like the, it's the latest one and the one that I feel like has like, I don't know, the best resources in there currently. They're all great though. And yeah, so that will guide you through. Yeah. Uncovering who your ideal audience is and then understanding them and figuring out how you're going to engage them.

[00:28:31] So yeah, those are my current digital products. 

[00:28:35] Rene: Awesome. So how are people, I guess, meant to like consume them? Like, do they, are they kind of linear where like they should start with a checklist and then go from there and then these other products, or is it just kind of, you know, they can get any one product, like, I guess as a collection, how do people look at them or how do you want people to look at them? 

[00:28:59] Hollie: Yeah, good question. Yeah, so the checklist kind of is like the umbrella, I would say that sort of like introduces you to everything. It's like the overarching, like, here's, here's your introduction to branding and like everything that's included.

[00:29:14] And it does, it gives you like the overview of everything. And then if you're like, okay, cool. Now I understand that. And I figured out that I want to focus on my brand strategy which is where most of the other products sit within the brand strategy phase. Then, okay, I'm going to focus on my vision.

[00:29:33] Then you can go and get the vision product. Or I want to focus on my people, then you could go and get the people product and then that would help you with that. And then the brand strategy kit for creators is more like that will help you with your whole. Putting all of your brand strategy into one template.

[00:29:52] Rene: Okay. Yeah. Awesome. Are there other pieces then that you haven't created yet that you'll create later? 

[00:29:58] Like other things that.

[00:29:59] Hollie: Yeah, yeah. [00:30:00] That's the, okay. That's the plan, yeah. 

[00:30:02] Rene: I like it. Yeah. 

[00:30:03] Hollie: So hopefully there'll be many more products to come. Mm-hmm. but not immediately in the pipeline at the moment 'cause I'm working on other things. Mm-hmm. Yes. But yeah, that's the plan is to have at least like brand strategy covered because that's kind of like my main focus to have like resources for most things involved in brand strategy. Yeah, that would be ideal. 

[00:30:25] Rene: Nice. And how do you know it's time.

[00:30:27] And this is what's next, like, does it just come to you or do you kind of like, you know, have an interaction with someone and think like, oh, you know what, people really need this? How does the inspiration, I guess, come to be, or how do you plan, like you said, not right now, not that you have to say exactly when, but how do you kind of plan these products over time, I suppose?

[00:30:49] Hollie: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think there's a few ways to figure it. Well, that I figure out like what to work on is, yeah, like. What am I hearing or getting questions about or seeing people talk about. If people are asking either on social media or in like my group coaching program all the time or in my one on ones or things like that, like if I'm getting repeat questions about things then that's something that I'm like, okay.

[00:31:15] People are not sure about this. So that could be really useful to create a product around. And then also if I'm finding that like. Or if I just like get inspiration or I'm like, Oh, actually, this is something that I use all the time with like my clients or in my program that people find really useful, then that could be a good product that other people that are not in these one on one containers or experiences might find useful then.

[00:31:45] That's a good, it could be a good option. And then in terms of timing, I guess it's just about what other things I have going on. Like right now I'm focused on, I have like a group mastermind that, and I [00:32:00] just launched that. And so that's my main focus is like continuing to it's kind of like an evergreen system.

[00:32:08] So just continuing to sort of build that and grow that and figure that out. There's only so much capacity I have in my brain and so I have like the capacity for only a certain amount of projects at a time, I guess.

[00:32:19] So I often will just like map out my year or map out like quarters at a time and figure out like, okay, what projects am I going to work on? And when can I fit in like a launch or or a product or project to like build the thing and do all the launching and all of that stuff. And I try and avoid launching things around like the end of the year as well, because.

[00:32:44] People are just not . People are no, they're out. 

[00:32:46] Rene: They're checked out. They're like, oh, year's over.

[00:32:48] Hollie: Yeah. Yeah. Especially like on like our side of the world in summer, December just doesn't exist. It just, everybody checks out. It's summer. We clock out for like six to eight weeks. Nice. And everybody's gone.

[00:33:01] Yeah. So there's just no point. So, mm-hmm. Yeah, that's kind of how I plan it out. I will just like, look at a calendar of the year and go like, okay. I just need to plot things out and see when I'm going to be like, if I'm going away or the other life things happening, when do I have like other launches going on or other things planned?

[00:33:22] Do I have big client things going on or whatever in sort of like, it's like a jigsaw puzzle. How can I kind of puzzle things together to make these launches fit or these products fit in a way that's not going to be overwhelming and going to be the most, make the most sense for me and for my audience.

[00:33:42] Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:33:43] Rene: How long did you normally allot for like creation and launch of a product? Like, you know, would you fit that into a quarter or. 

[00:33:52] Hollie: Yeah. I usually could fit it into a quarter, I think. It depends on, it depends on the kind of product, [00:34:00] like, I don't know if you would call it a product, but like the program I just launched took longer than that because it was like huge, huge anyway.

[00:34:09] And also just, I had some life things going on that made it take a lot longer. But like a smaller product, like say one of the clarity products I was just talking to you about. Those are a little bit smaller, like those could, I could do that in a quarter for sure. Yeah, it depends. And launches, I usually allocate like two weeks to a lot, like a live launch.

[00:34:33] Yeah, usually a couple of weeks. So well up to a couple of weeks. I probably wouldn't be live launching for two weeks. 

[00:34:40] Rene: Is that like a week of like, it's coming and then a week of here it is, or like, is it all just like, here it is? Like, do you do any like pre stuff that happens ahead of time?

[00:34:51] Like, it's coming, it's coming. 

[00:34:52] Hollie: Yeah, yeah. I definitely try and do like pre warm up things like even months before, if I know it's coming, like I would at least talk about like the topic a lot more or yeah, we'll just show that I'm working on something new or things like that. Or get people's opinions or thoughts or get people involved if that's part of the process for that different, for that particular product. 

[00:35:18] Like with the ultimate branding checklist version two, like I got people's feedback from the first version, people who had downloaded the first version. I was like, I need your opinions on the version one. So that I can make version two even better improved from the first one.

[00:35:34] So like. I started that process a lot earlier and talking to people on social media and stuff a lot earlier because I wanted to know what they thought. And I could start that a lot earlier too, because like, it wasn't, it didn't need to be a surprise because people already knew about version one.

[00:35:50] So and I wanted them to know that version two was coming. So I talked about it pretty openly. So that was cool. Yeah. 

[00:35:57] Rene: Nice. Yeah. You generated all that buzz. 

[00:35:58] People know, like, and I [00:36:00] think when you ask people for that feedback too, they feel involved and heard and recognized and yeah, all that good stuff.

[00:36:06] Do you want to talk a little bit about if you have any thoughts about marketing your products versus marketing your services? I'd like to hear some people's thoughts on that because I think that it is way different to market the products versus the services. 

[00:36:20] Hollie: I always find it a really fun opportunity to do, like, different ways of marketing. Like, with a service, I've always found it a little bit difficult because there's less things to show. Like, you can't have physical things, really.

[00:36:41] Yeah. It's, you have to kind of make this intangible transformation as, as a coach, you know, as a designer, even it was a little bit easier because I could show these physical things that I'd made, like. Even a logo or whatever, it was a little easier, but now as a coach, I can show you testimonials or like I can tell you stories and things like that. It's, but it's difficult. Whereas like when you have a product, it's quite fun because it's like, Oh, I can show you all these different parts of the product, which is cool. And so like with the ultimate branding checklist, I had heaps of fun because I was like, I can show this, I can like print it out.

[00:37:23] I can put it on a, like mock it up. I had it on my iPad and I like showed it on my iPad. I took photos of it. Like yeah, it was a fun way to just show things physically or like in a different way. So. Yeah, I just think have fun doing it marketing in different ways than you're used to marketing a service. It's an opportunity to break the mold, add a little bit of like variety to your content. It might be like something different for your audience to like, if they're used to you making marketing or making content in a certain way and then you can show up with something a little [00:38:00] different is always a good way to like break the monotony or, you know, show them something a little different is, is cool.

[00:38:07] Rene: Yeah, I think embracing that, that's a great idea, because I, I do think that we kind of get comfortable in the marketing of our services, however that occurs, we've been doing that for a long time, and we're used to it, you know, we get on a Zoom call or whatever, and we, we wow people with the things that we say, and, and, you know, and, and the marketing is different, but yeah, you know, having a product, you know, you're not going to do that one on one marketing, but you do have something to show and you can show it in different ways and you can show people using it and you can show all kinds of things because it's a thing that exists, you know, at least digitally. So yeah, that's a great tip. Yeah. 

[00:38:41] Hollie: Yeah. That like user generated content is cool too. Like that's something I've really enjoyed with like the ultimate branding checklist is like seeing other people's photos of them using it. I remember when I launched the first one and a friend of mine printed it out and got it spiral bound and I was like, that is so cool.

[00:39:03] I was like, that is amazing. I love that. And so just like having content from other people is really fun too, and that's obviously we get that with services too like, you know, people mentioning us and testimonials and stuff, but it's a little different, slightly different when people are like showing your product in a certain way is very cool.

[00:39:25] Rene: Yeah. And it's also kind of unexpected I think. You know, we kind of expect after, you know, a big engagement and a service to get that, you know, juicy testimonial that we can put on our website or whatever, but, you know, the product I think is. I don't know. It just feels extra special, you know, when somebody printed that out in spiral bounded, like that would be amazing. 

[00:39:44] What two to three things, and they could be things that you've already said or totally new things, two to three things you recommend for somebody creating their first product, they haven't created anything, maybe they haven't started, maybe they have an idea, maybe they don't, anything really.

[00:39:57] Hollie: Yeah, good question. [00:40:00] I think something that I haven't mentioned and that I'm actually not very good at is like getting, getting validation on things before you dive into them. Because I am not good at this. I am like. I love to just have an idea and make it happen, no matter what. Which is fine in some ways.

[00:40:26] Yeah, I don't know what that says about my personality or whatever. But like, I have a lot of fun putting these things together and like. It must like do something for my soul to be able to like have this idea and see it come to life and become a thing, but it's not very worthwhile and then like nothing happens.

[00:40:52] And yes, obviously you learn a lot during the process and like, yeah, like good things do come from it, but it would be beneficial if then people buy that thing or download that thing or whatever. So yeah, I would do what you can to get some validation on those things like whether that's getting a waitlist or I don't know having a beta group or whatever it is to make sure that people are going to do download or pay for that thing before you put in all the effort.

[00:41:22] That's something I definitely need to get better at before I put in all the work. 

[00:41:28] Rene: Yeah, it's so fun though if you have an idea and you're like, Oh, I'm really excited about doing this. It's hard to not. Sometimes I think it's hard to not do it because you're like, Oh, I'm excited about it. 

[00:41:37] Hollie: Yeah. But yeah. And I, yeah, struggle to let an idea die. And so I need to just, I need to make it happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that would be my first piece of advice. And then what else would I say? I would say just try and have like, as much fun as you [00:42:00] can during the process to like, I think there can be a lot of sort of pressure put on like creating digital products and launching courses and products and having these like sold out $10,000 launches and all of this stuff and other people put pressure on us, but we also put that pressure on us and it can be very stressful. And when we have these expectations of like, how many people are going to buy or how much money we're going to make or how perfect it's going to be and all of that stuff.

[00:42:34] It can make the process become not fun. And like, what's the point? Like, you know, we're running our own business and doing these things because we supposedly love it. And so like, I would try and remember that throughout the process that you're supposed to be doing this because you love it. And so if you're doing.

[00:42:58] Creating this product and it's becoming more stressful than it's worth, then maybe reconsider what you're doing or refocus on why you're doing it. Come full circle, right back to the beginning. Remember your why and just remember that, like, yeah, try and have fun, like. Focus on, like, having fun creating and seeing what you can make and talking to your audience and like engaging with people and seeing how people like it and like, just focus on the fun parts of it and try as much as you can, even though it's difficult to focus less on like the stressful pressure, pressure focused parts of the process. 

[00:43:40] Rene: Yeah. I think that why is so important because I think a lot of times the why is because somebody told me to. Like maybe we don't admit that.

[00:43:46] We think it's because whatever. But the, the underneath why is. I think I'm supposed to do this because I'm at a certain point in my career. I've been doing this for a certain amount of time or this is the next step or whatever. [00:44:00] And really, if that's the reason, I like, just don't, just don't go down that path because it's a lot of work and yeah, it can be filled with pressure and stress.

[00:44:09] And yeah, I think if you're not going to like it you know, that you shouldn't go down that way. But if you do have that, why that you really want to do it, yeah, I always feel like at the end what I've created something I'm like, thing, like whatever that thing is, I'm like, I did this thing. And I think there's a lot of pride to be had in that too.

[00:44:27] And, and sharing the things that you know, and hopefully you're excited about the topic. Hopefully you're creating something in an area that you are knowledgeable about and solves an important problem for people, which should be fun for you. So, yes, if there's, if, if you, it's totally devoid of fun, then might want to want to think about what's actually happening and why.

[00:44:50] Hollie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, as I told you, I wrote like a 30 page PDF on branding. And so like, if you don't find that fun, don't, don't do that. Like, yeah, that was a lot of hard work, but like, I love that. And that was like, I was in my nerdy little heaven, writing stuff, like, all this detailed information about all the little branding details.

[00:45:17] And I was living my best life. If you're like, that sounds like hell to me. Yeah. Then maybe don't do that. 

[00:45:23] Rene: Don't, don't. It's okay. You don't have to. Like, here's, here's your permission. 

[00:45:28] You do not have to do it that way. Yes. Yeah. If it doesn't work for you. 

[00:45:33] Hollie: Yeah. Also the fact that like I've found a lot of freedom in the fact that you don't have to do products in the way that everybody else has done them too like, you know, just because I've written a 30 page PDF.

[00:45:45] Doesn't mean you have to write a 30 page PDF. If you hate writing, like I saw somebody that I follow she like is love speaking and she made a product like off the cuff the other day, she was recording audio [00:46:00] snippets in her car and just made a product. Just recording audio in her car, and she recorded like 15 audio snippets and launched that. Like, that could be your product, you know it doesn't have to be hard.

[00:46:15] It doesn't have to take you months of writing. It could take you half an hour of recording audio. It could take you whatever. Like do whatever works for you and whatever lights you up and whatever like feeds into your like strengths and whatever brings you joy.

[00:46:31] Rene: I totally agree. And I, you mentioned about, you know, about freelancing or, you know, owning your own business.

[00:46:36] I probably say this in every episode, but like, I feel like you kind of owe it to yourself. Like, if you're just going to be miserable doing the things that you're doing, just go to get a job and get health insurance and, you know, retirement, like. Yes. Like, you, you owe it to yourself to find the thing that is fun and exciting for you.

[00:46:53] And yeah, it doesn't have to be any one way. It doesn't have to be any one thing. It doesn't have to be a checklist. It doesn't have to be, it could just be whatever, whatever you like, whatever your audience likes. Exactly. For sure. Awesome. Yay. Well, thank you so much. So where can people find you online? 

[00:47:09] Hollie: You can find me anywhere at Maker and Moxie, primarily right now on Instagram or Threads.

[00:47:16] And you can find me at my website, makerandmoxie.com.

[00:47:20] Rene: Awesome. Yay. Well, thank you so much. And thanks for coming on today. 

[00:47:23] Hollie: You're so welcome. Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:47:25] Rene: Hey, thanks for listening. I'd love to continue the conversation in your inbox. Email SUBSCRIBE to hey at yfdp.show or sign up in the show notes to get bimonthly emails about how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. Can't wait to see you there.