[00:00:00] Rene: Hey everyone. Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing one on one work, and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. I'm your host Rene Morozowich. Let's go!

[00:00:28] Hey everyone. Today I am here with Deanna Seymour and as the host of Big Fun Content, Deanna understands the power of creativity, fun, and letting your freak flag fly. That's hard to say. When it comes to content creation, she's all about bold branding, lively design, and making less content, but doing it better. Hey, Deanna, how are you?

[00:00:48] Deanna: Good. How are you? I am sorry for putting that in my bio.

[00:00:51] Rene: Yeah. 

[00:00:51] Deanna: It's like a trick. It's like a mean trick to the host. I need to fix that.

[00:00:55] Rene: Yeah, I was thinking that. I was like, wait a second. 'cause I hadn't read it out loud yet, and I'm like, wait, that's hard to say, but all good. I totally get it. So yeah, I'm excited you're here. So tell us a little bit about you. 

[00:01:05] Deanna: Okay. I am actually, uh, what I call myself a creative director for personal brands. So as most of us do, I've sort of tried on a few different titles through the, through the years, and that's kind of what I've landed on because I help people with graphic design and their content and a little bit of branding.

[00:01:23] And so really it's just kind of the whole like Shebang of like, how are you gonna show up online and how are people gonna perceive you and your brand? So that's what, that's kinda what I do. I guess it was my business, not me as a person. I don't know what you meant.

[00:01:35] Rene: Yeah. No, it's, yeah, I, most people say that. Yeah. And I feel like we identify with that quite a bit, especially as entrepreneurs, as solo business owners. Like as people who really kind of, I don't know your past history, but like I kind of broke out of like the, the corporate world. And so my identity for better or worse Yeah, is really tied to this stuff that I do during the day, you know, to sustain myself in life or my kid, you know, like that kind of stuff.[00:02:00] 

[00:02:00] Deanna: Yeah, for sure. I broke out of the teaching world, so I was teacher for 13 years. And so, um, back then that's, I feel like all I would talk about slash complain about, uh, sometimes, know how that goes and yeah, so now it's just like what I do all day is that so.

[00:02:16] Rene: Yeah. Yeah. And we like it. And that's kind of the thing. And I think that's so important that we really like what we do. And that shows in our branding and that shows in our content and that shows in our products, and we're just excited about it. So like I always find that when I'm out somewhere, if somebody wants to talk about this kind of stuff, I'm like really excited.

[00:02:34] Like instead of talking about like the laundry or groceries or something, like, I'm like, eh, boring. Let's talk about work. 

[00:02:40] Deanna: My husband's probably excited when I meet someone else who will let me talk them about it. 'cause sometimes I am a chatterbox and he's like, I don't even know what you're talking about.

[00:02:48] Rene: Yes. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. Partners, spouses, any of that, they're like, Ugh. Okay, on, can you go find someone else to talk to? Like, yeah, I get it. . Awesome. Okay, so you have several products. I was scouring your website and you have several products up right now, but I'm not sure if any of those were your first product.

[00:03:05] I'm kind of thinking not. I didn't ask beforehand 'cause I like to be surprised. Uh, so tell us about your first digital product. What it was and who it was for and what problem it solved. All that good stuff.

[00:03:15] Deanna: Yeah. Well I was thinking, I like had to go in the archives and research for I was like, what was my first product? Um, and then I even thought, it's like off the record, I don't even know where this would be 'cause it's before ThriveCart and before all the things. But very first one was kind of a membership and it, is funny how things like go full circle. 

[00:03:35] And it's like three years I'm like, oh, I'm kind of doing what I did in the beginning and then I changed my mind a hundred times and now it's like what I wanted to do. So for me as a former teacher, I think memberships feel the most like being in a classroom again, like a group of people and helping them.

[00:03:51] And I was a art teacher, so helping people with content is also feels, it just feels really natural to me. So, um, [00:04:00] that was my like official first product, I guess. Does a membership count as a product? You count that as product?

[00:04:06] Rene: I think it depends. Yeah. Some people will say it does or doesn't and really it's, it doesn't like, it doesn't matter to me. I'm not like, Nope, off the podcast, not a product. Like, like, no, we're not gonna do it like that. I try to think of a product as something that doesn't require so much of your time. 

[00:04:20] Deanna: Okay. 

[00:04:21] Rene: So it kind of depends on the membership and maybe how much of yourself you put in there.

[00:04:24] But I think a lot of memberships, even if there's like a one-on-one component or a group component, or a Slack group or whatever it is, I think they still have a lot of you know, maybe resources or videos or something where you've maybe done some work ahead of time and they are consuming that content without you being there specifically.

[00:04:42] So, does that make sense? 

[00:04:44] Deanna: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think if I can just go on a little soapbox for a second. Be like, as teacher, a good membership is going to not be as passive as a little workshop or a product a downloadable whatever. So I'm with you on that. Like I'm like, oh yeah, the membership was more meetings and stuff like that.

[00:05:02] So that was like my first little dip my toe into the pool of online business. But then my real first digital product is my gif course, which actually is still available. Um, I keep saying I should update it, maybe, I don't know. I feel like I'm like, oh, I have to go back and watch it. Um, but I made that in October of 2021.

[00:05:23] So I did go back and like I said, do my research. And it is funny because I haven't really promoted it even now, like as much as I could, I just. I just kinda like, forget it it's there and it's $50. And so it's not like a huge course or anything like that. Um, but I will say I do remember one day I was out to lunch with my husband and like the kids were at school.

[00:05:47] He was off that day and we were like, oh, day date fun. And then I got an email that was like, you sold gif it up. That's what it's called. And um, I was like, oh my God, I just sold a course and like we that just paid for lunch. Like, this is [00:06:00] amazing. Like, it felt really cool. To not really have to do anything. 

[00:06:04] Um, and I do have a lot of content around like courses and I think sometimes people buy too many courses. And as a former teacher, I think sometimes people sell a course and then don't really support their people. So I have some like mixed feelings about it. But I will be honest that that passive income quote unquote passive, right, because I had make the, the thing.

[00:06:23] And, the reason I don't sell more of it is 'cause I am passively I'm not promoting it. Um,

[00:06:27] Rene: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:06:28] Deanna: So that takes effort. I'm not really doing that. But, um, that is probably my official first product. And I think the only, besides I do like podcast series, the only other thing on my website that's for sale, that's like a workshop up or course really, um, offers, I work with people one-on-one do custom like design work and branding. And I have my, my membership now that is like the one that after three years, like, oh, back to back to square one, I really wanna do a membership. 

[00:06:56] Um, but yeah, I think gif up is my only one for right now. I have one. I don't know if anyone else does this that I made and I have not even shared it with the world yet.

[00:07:06] Rene: If anyone else does this, I sure. I am sure a hundred percent sure that people do that. So no worries.

[00:07:12] Yeah. So tell us about that. 

[00:07:14] Deanna: Yeah, I have two in the, I have two that I've made. Well, that's a lie. I have not shown it to anyone. My members all have access.

[00:07:23] So again, it's just my teacher heart that's like, really, I make stuff for them. But these two are like, good. And I'm like, Hmm, these could be standalone products.

[00:07:31] Um, I made one about how I do my reels to promote my podcast. Uh, 'cause I was getting a lot of comments like, oh, these are fun. They have gifs in 'em and they're kind of silly. And so I did a like step by step tutorial on that. And then also my reels where I talk to the camera and like how I script them all the way through like how I edit them. So those two workshops are finished. Um, but I just haven't told anybody about it. You're hearing it first, folks. Um. 

[00:07:57] Rene: Nice. 

[00:07:58] Deanna: But yeah, so, and [00:08:00] what I like to use those for honestly, and I think the reason I forget to promote them as much is 'cause right now, really my big sellers are, or like where I make the most of my money is my custom work and my membership. Again, it's like, which came first? The chicken or the egg? Do I not make money on my workshops? 'cause I never talk about them or they're just like less money than the other two things. Um, but I love using those workshops for bundles or like participating in things where I can, um, sign up. So actually I guess I've told, I did tell somebody about my workshop when I was applying to be in a bundle, like a podcasting bundle. 

[00:08:37] And um, so those are always good kind of for me as more of a marketing tool, is like how I think of them. But now that we're reminiscing about that lunch where I felt like I got free $50, I think I should talk about my workshops more.

[00:08:50] Rene: Yeah, for sure if you've already created it. But yeah, I've heard that same thing too, where people have created something and yeah, for whatever reason, didn't really market. Or maybe they did and it didn't sell or whatever it was. But yeah, using that as, um, when whenever you participate in a bundle or using that to give to your membership community as an extra, like, I think it's, it's, it's not for naught.

[00:09:15] Like you can still use that. It's still good. Right. It's, it's not like. It's like, oh, well I can't use this 'cause the content's not good. That's not the case. It's just kind of like, yeah. How do you wanna promote it? And, um, you, have you ever thought about using it as a lead into the community or the membership?

[00:09:30] Like how do you get people from, you know, they just met you, I don't know, they came across a podcast episode or whatever it is. How do you get them to membership community? Like what are the steps that get them there?

[00:09:43] Deanna: Oh my funnel. Um, I always joke that I'm like, what's the funnel? Oh my gosh, they're gonna fall in funnel. Um, well, I do, I do have a free audio course called Less Content More Connection, which is just a quick 20 minute, um, audio course with some worksheets walking you through like, [00:10:00] how can you like clear some space?

[00:10:01] I'm like, I know we all put way too much pressure on ourselves to do all the things. And it be hard because sometimes people who we look up to in the industry say like, you don't have to be everywhere. And then you look and you're like, uh, but you're everywhere and you're successful. So it feels like I have to be. I feel like you're lying to me. Um. 

[00:10:19] Rene: And they also have a team of people doing it, right? 

[00:10:22] Deanna: Yeah. 

[00:10:22] Rene: They have an Instagram person and they have a Threads person, and you're like, wait, I have me. Yeah. Anyway. 

[00:10:29] Deanna: It's so confusing. It's just, it's funny 'cause like I keep, you always remind yourself that, that like, you know, oftentimes, like in our circle, I guess sometimes like a woman, like one woman figure who looks like she's just a regular gal doing it all on her own.

[00:10:44] Um, but you're right, is a team and I think we all know in, in our minds that it's just that they have a team. But it's hard to remember sometimes in the moment. 'cause you're like, well, they just like me and they're just like, they don't often talk about their team unless they're using it as a way to like look powerful. 

[00:11:00] Sometimes people like drop the team, like drop team as a word real quick to remind you that they're like ahead of you.

[00:11:07] But, um, I think we know that. But then it's really hard to remember when you want to aspire to be like them and they're everywhere. You're like, okay, well I have to be everywhere. Uh, so that course helps people do that. And then there's also, um, a coworking that we do in my membership. So once a quarter we open it up to anybody who wants to come.

[00:11:26] Like my members are cool with that. And so that course leads you into coming live to hang out with us and cowork with us for a full day. It's like from 9:00 AM to 2:00 PM Eastern and like come and go as you please. 

[00:11:38] But a fun place to body double and get stuff done and have a little bit of accountability. And so that's sort of the way I lead them into that. But you're right, I mean the, the workshops could also be sort of a low ticket, lower ticket offer, um, to get them there.

[00:11:55] I also have an audio course called Stop Buying Courses. [00:12:00] Which is kind of funny. Um, it was originally called Steal This Course named after the book from the seventies. And I thought I was so punk rock. But then I kept finding myself saying, steal this course. Oh, it's a course about how you can stop buying courses.

[00:12:11] So then I was like, all right, marketing was too clever for my own good on that one. Let's change the name. Um, and so that's a $9 course, but there's a coupon code on the sales page for you to actually steal it if you've already spent too much money on courses because I just can't help myself making funny jokes. Also, I come from spending way too much on courses that I didn't need to buy. 

[00:12:32] And it was funny 'cause when I was making that one, I was like, is this even smart? Like how does this how does this, am I telling people not to buy courses and then like, I have a couple of workshops or a little something, um, I wanna have a membership and that could go into that. 

[00:12:46] And I, it, I didn't really care. I just wanted to make it. 'cause I had spent money that I regretted on courses and I was like, I don't care. I wanna share this with people. And now where I am in my business, I'm like, oh, it actually does make sense because a lot of my messaging too is about like my membership and how I can be there to help you, but also, I mean you know, digital products can be all kinds of price, price points, right? 

[00:13:12] And like I feel like if it's a little workshop, like little, I'm a fan, I'm a fan of the little ones. Although you do have to be careful 'cause it can sneak up on you. 'cause you could do like a bunch of those and like make sure you're doing them and completing the work. But.

[00:13:23] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:13:24] Deanna: I just think that digital products, like you have to learn the things. I'm a fan of digital products that teach you a thing.

[00:13:31] Rene: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:13:32] Deanna: Sometimes not like a huge like signature course that can be so overwhelming for people. So I try to say sort of like, what's my next step and who can help me check off that next step?

[00:13:43] You know, if I wanna make gifs, like gif it up is just about gifs. It's not about gif and how you can implement them in your emails and in your marketing and in like, it's just like, how do you make one?

[00:13:53] Rene: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:13:54] Deanna: Here we go, gimme $50. I'll show you how.

[00:13:56] Rene: Yeah. Yeah, I feel the same. Like, I think [00:14:00] that, well, I'm also kind of against like making courses like for like a first product, especially like these, we have this idea, like this huge signature course, like don't make a huge signature course. Like make it later if you want to, or if you have the audience for it.

[00:14:14] If your audience is asking what, you know, there's, there's cases, but like default shouldn't be like product course. Like, you know, when you're gonna hunker down for two years and like record 8,000 videos, like, don't do that. Oh no. Don't do that. . Yes. 

[00:14:26] Deanna: I know, It's so hard on the person making it like I, that's so I've never talked about how hard it is to make it. I just know how hard it to get through it. Like

[00:14:36] Rene: Yes. 

[00:14:37] Deanna: as a person with ADHD, like getting through a whole signature course is is difficult, but now that you're mentioning it, I'm like, I can't even imagine making a signature course

[00:14:47] Rene: Yeah. It's all, it's all of that. It's all so, like, it's so much. And I, and that's why I love like your, you know, you have the, so you, you are calling certain ones private podcasts and you're calling certain ones audio courses. So like, if you have a difference, let's talk about that. But I love that sort of like, even on one of your sales pages, it's like, no workbooks, no, because e even like, like, I, I love business books.

[00:15:11] And it seems like every business book nowadays, it's like, they're like, they want to give me 57,000 workbooks and like answer 800 questions, and I'm like, oh my God, I don't wanna do this, I just wanna read the book. You know?

[00:15:27] Deanna: Yes. Yes. Um, it can be exhausting, I think too. As coming as a art teacher background, which I know I have the flexibility, I always like felt bad for the math teachers. Like there's a or wrong answer. Right? So I had a lot flexibility with how I could approach what my students even created. You know, I could go with this class hates clay.

[00:15:46] Like, okay, we don't have to do that. We can build cardboard or whatever. Um, I think it can be really challenging when you start a business and like for me, I was like, well, I'm a teacher. I'm not a business lady. [00:16:00] I have to learn how everything. I need to learn how to be, be a business owner. And then I downloaded all these freebies and joined bundles and you know, I wanted start a podcast.

[00:16:09] I was how do I do that? Like how often I do it? Like somebody just tell me what to do and I'm a good student. Like as a teacher, I like, I appreciate a good teaching environment. I'm a good, a lifelong learner, but then I started like not even hearing my own voice and not trusting my own gut. And it was really hard to run a business when you had like a thousand bosses instead of just one.

[00:16:31] Like, you know, you can scroll through Instagram and somebody will say, post once a week. And someone will say, post five times a week. And you know, someone will say five times a day and then you get off the I was gonna say the computer, I'm like, oh, I'm a boomer. Get off your phone. And you're like, ah, what do I do?

[00:16:47] Like, I don't know what to do. And I now all of a sudden, everything feels wrong. If you're doing it once you, you have that voice in your head that's, oh, that other person said, you know, five times and this person said, and then you never feel like you're doing it right. Um, so for me, I kind of had a detox from all of that and be like, I'm not gonna do anything.

[00:17:03] I'm just gonna try to trust myself. And I think most of us know sort of what to do, like if you wanna sell a course, I mean, obviously you would like some guidance about like, what platform should I use or what, whatever. 

[00:17:17] But like ultimately, you know, you have to record something or write down some, like you have to present information to someone, and then you have to have a way to get their money and like, hopefully they land on your email list.

[00:17:29] Like those are like the three main parts, like make it, sell it, continue that relationship and those can be done depending on who you ask 1 million different ways.

[00:17:40] So I think just like find a couple people you really trust, and I think like the, you know, big celebrity entrepreneurs are sort of shiny and obviously biggest ones.

[00:17:53] They're like ones that the podcast player recommends to you and stuff. But I have really found that shopping small when it comes to [00:18:00] online business is where it's at because it's literally the same information. Like the big celebrity entrepreneurs are not really teaching, in my opinion, anything groundbreaking.

[00:18:10] Like I would even maybe argue that they're teaching old tactics that worked for them like 15 years ago. And it, like, the internet is totally different now.

[00:18:18] Um, so for me, shopping small and finding smaller businesses that I can buy courses from and support, which is funny 'cause we always say like support, like shop local support, small businesses like Um, nobody wants to like, I mean I do buy from Amazon, but I'm like, shh. I don't mean to. I'm sorry. I terrible. He is got like a spaceship, whatever. I know. It's awful. 

[00:18:41] Um, I would love to say that I buy all my books at the local bookshop, you know, but really I don't. Um, but it's funny 'cause we don't think about the celebrity entrepreneurs 'cause what we were talking about before where we think it's just a lady just like us, but those are like the Amazons of the online business world. And I think when we can support a newer business, I also think we get better customer support. 

[00:19:03] Even though those people have a team, I think we get maybe not better. Like maybe not faster. 'cause maybe they're like, kid is sick, so maybe we have to wait a second. But they will like talk to you like a human, treat you like a human and like it's so much less businessy and much more To me, I feel like I've great made great friendships and relationships by, you know, buying a $50 workshop and now it's like a friend of mine who's gonna come to the birthday party I'm hosting for myself on Zoom.

[00:19:29] 'cause sometimes I feel like my online business friends are like better friends with me at this point than my real life friends. Um, that has to do with kids and, you know, 43 and like being tired and falling asleep on the couch 8:00 PM But you know, um, it's just, I think I just went down a real rabbit hole with you .

[00:19:46] Rene: Yeah. No, but yeah, I agree because I think it's, it's much more personal. I think that the person, the person on the other end is probably really excited about that sale. Like really excited that somebody has you know, [00:20:00] shown some faith in them. And I do think you can develop that connection. And I also like to think about it like, you know, the, the people who are really far ahead of us, uh, who are really big, are really far ahead of us.

[00:20:10] And sometimes it's nicer to work with people who are just a little bit far ahead of us because they, they know enough, they, they know enough, they know, uh, probably newer information because maybe they just did it recently. 

[00:20:23] And I think it's just, um, it's more like you. Right. And I think that that connection is better than, like, like you said, like the, the Amazon, you know, famous marketing people, um, you know, that we're always hearing about. So yeah. I'm, we're on the same page. All of it.

[00:20:37] Deanna: Yeah. And sometimes you join their groups and it's like, not even them. Then you're like, oh, well this isn't was gonna happen. Like, know, there's a whole thing. But, um, yeah, I like, I'm all about friends, so.

[00:20:48] Rene: Yeah. 

[00:20:49] Deanna: I think, like, I think you're right. Like, I mean, I feel like a digital product of some sort, whether it's a digital product that's a lead magnet or an opt-in or something. Like, I do kind of feel like that's the, the gateway, the portal to like making friends or finding your people when it comes to online business for sure.

[00:21:06] Rene: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Okay, so the one you mentioned, the gif, I don't think I saw that on your website and I combed through your website pretty hard because I was trying to prep for this, so I would say we put that up there somewhere.

[00:21:20] Deanna: Well I think I also have to update it. I think I'm like back on that one. 'cause I do feel like, I mean, 2021, I. I need to like, I need like re-watch it to make sure everything checks out on that one. 

[00:21:32] Um, I also have just really been leaning into my membership and me, I do have like perfectionist tendencies, even though I'm all about fun and like whatever, I just can't help myself. Um, it's my hyperfocus, I think of my ADHD and perhaps my anxiety, I don't know, there's some mental, I need to see a therapist and then my perfectionism will go away. But, um. for me, when I share it, when I make something for my membership, I don't feel nervous at all. Like, I'm just like, [00:22:00] like, who cares? They, they don't care. They're already here. They trust me. They know me.

[00:22:04] Rene: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:22:05] Deanna: I feel like I put a lot of pressure on myself if, if I were to release it into the wild, 'cause I'm like, don't want this to be someone's like first impress, like if it starts to feel like, oh, this is their first impression of me.

[00:22:14] Rene: Yeah. 

[00:22:14] Deanna: I, I'm like, ah, this better be really, really good. Or else like, whatever. So I think that's also why I've switched to sort of more audio. 'cause I love podcasting and it feels really natural for me to just be like, here's the Google doc. I know some of my stuff doesn't have a worksheet, but the less content, more connection, it's 20 minutes of me talking.

[00:22:33] But I'm literally just talking them through the worksheet, which feels very natural for me and I hope really helpful for them because it's just like, you just get it done. It's 20 minutes, you know? 

[00:22:43] Like, like saying, like, huh, I don't wanna, I just wanna read this book. I don't wanna do a huge worksheet.

[00:22:48] So, um, and there's even a worksheet version that is like, if you don't wanna listen, like if you want to read along and do your work worksheet, I've sort of put the transcripts on the Google Drive within the worksheet. Or if you don't wanna read all that stuff and you just wanna like listen and write your notes, do this one.

[00:23:03] Like, we have two, like a choose your own adventure. Um, and then ends with like, hanging out with me in person. 'cause that's really what I like.

[00:23:10] Rene: That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that different modalities too. Like some people really wanna listen. Some people really want to read, some people really wanna watch. Like, there's a lot of different ways. And your, your, audience doesn't just learn in one way.

[00:23:24] So taking something that you like to do audio and kind of just like, yeah, like you said with the transcript, like that didn't, it took you extra time, but it didn't take you so much extra time to, to make that available for people who may want it.

[00:23:37] Deanna: Yeah, for sure.

[00:23:38] Rene: Yeah. Okay. Is there a difference between a private podcast and an audio course? Like, what is the difference? How, how do you determine the difference between those things?

[00:23:47] Deanna: Yeah. It's funny, I don't I think you're the first person who's pointed out to me say that, but as you said it, I'm like, oh yeah, there is a difference. So for me, a audio course is just me. Like, I'm the star. I'm the star of the [00:24:00] audio course I'm teaching and I'm teaching you something. Like, it feels very much like, here's my methodology for how I plan content.

[00:24:07] Or like, here's my, you know, uh, stop buying courses has workbooks that, um, actually a Google spreadsheet, which is usually not my artsy style, but a way to sort of figure out how you should, like, if you should buy a course or not.

[00:24:26] It's kind of fun. It's like an interactive thing to help you when you're on a sales page and you're feeling like you need to get out your credit card, like, go to this thing and just like, answer questions so you can, like, it's kinda quiz for yourself. 

[00:24:37] Rene: Love that. 

[00:24:38] Deanna: Yeah.

[00:24:38] Rene: Yeah. just, stop, take a pause.

[00:24:40] Deanna: Just, just yeah. 

[00:24:42] Rene: Because we feel pulled. Like, I think like that's what it, that's what a sales page is supposed to do. It's supposed to pull us and we feel really like, I have to buy this. I have to buy it now. Like, where's my credit card? Oh, I already know the number by heart. Know, you know.

[00:24:55] Deanna: Yeah. That's when I know I'm too much. Like right now holiday season when I know the code on the back by heart, I'm like.

[00:25:00] Rene: Yes. Mm-Hmm. 

[00:25:01] Deanna: In too much. Um, yeah. I almost said it, I'm like, maybe I shouldn't say it on the podcast, but it was so funny. I'm like, ready to say my number. So, yeah. So the, the course I feel like is me teaching something. Um, and I feel like there's usually a workbook. The series are the ones that are just like fun and usually involve guests. So, um, it's really just another podcast, but it's private so people sign up for it. I usually, I have two of 'em.

[00:25:30] I have f that breaking the rules of online business. Which funnily enough used to be my podcast, my regular podcast, but when I leaning more into content, I rebranded that as Big Fun Content. So all my guests and I, we mostly talk about content and things that somehow relate to content.

[00:25:47] Um, but I just love talking about this weird world of online business and all the things that go on in it. And I love hearing different ways people run their business. So had to keep f that breaking the rules of online business so people come on and talk about something they were [00:26:00] doing in their business. and then all of a sudden they were like, what am I doing like F that? I don't have to do that. Here's what I'm gonna do now.

[00:26:06] So you get some really fun, I think fresh takes on business and how people are doing it. And my hope is that you listen and you don't say like, oh, now I have to do what they did. But you can be like, oh, well that's kind of cool. Now I can maybe do it this way or whatever.

[00:26:20] So I feel that's very like inspirational. Fun series. So I do it once or twice a year, and I usually do a free week where people can sign up and listen for free during that week, or it's available on my website for $9, like all year. Um, and that's, there's three seasons of that. And so as the all access pass, you just keep getting, like once you're in, you're in and you get all the seasons. 

[00:26:42] So, and then my next, my other series is called the Anti Hustle Holiday Countdown. Um, and that's 21 business owners in December talking about just their holiday traditions. So it has nothing to do with business.

[00:26:55] It's just a fun way to remind people, like, don't forget, we love our jobs and we're excited and we're working really hard to grow these businesses, but also take some time off and have some fun. Um, and I think that's a really fun way to meet online business owners that you kind of have never heard of. But when you hear them talk about their own lives, you like, it's like the opposite, right? You like fall in love with the person and then you learn about business from them instead of finding someone for business and feeling oh, they're cool, I like them. 

[00:27:23] So it sort of like flips that on its head and I love that. So that's had three seasons too, and it's the same way. Like you can, um, buy the all access pass or you can get it for free. But the all access pass ones do get, uh, donated to this year we're doing Dolly Parton's Imagination Library. 'cause I feel like she's the queen of Christmas in my mind. So.

[00:27:42] Rene: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I, yeah. Yeah. I feel kind of the same way about the, like you don't have to do it any specific way. That's kind of why I like to do these interviews that, you know, people, like we talked about, people think like digital product course. Like I've had so many people on the podcast, most people haven't [00:28:00] done a course or the people that did, didn't see the success they wanted with it, so they tried something else instead.

[00:28:06] Um, and I, I like to hope that people find inspiration because the people who have digital products, who, who created a digital product in the past, more than likely still have a digital product. So once you start, you know, and you get that sale while you're out to lunch, or I showed, I had one this morning, um, for, I have like a little, uh, a guide about how to use the 12 Week Year, um, about how to review and plan and all that stuff.

[00:28:32] You know, it's like super cheap. It's on my other website. Um, but yeah, I had a sale this morning, like, yay. Super exciting. Like, I feel Like, once you see that, once you have that you it kind of like opens your mind up and you're like, okay. 

[00:28:46] Like you don't want to get rid of it. Maybe you get rid of that specific product or maybe you change it, but then you start thinking, okay, what are other things that I can do and what are things that I like?

[00:28:55] Like not everybody likes video, so don't make something with a video. Like you don't have to do that. You can do something else. What do you like? You know, some people love spreadsheets, some people hate them. 

[00:29:04] So there are options out there. And yeah, it's definitely not like, here's exactly how you do it. Now there are guidelines like it would maybe be helpful if you had an audience. It would maybe be helpful if you validated it, before you spent a lot of time on it, but you don't have to. You can do it and see what happens. But, you know, so that kind of thing. That's kind of what I, my philosophy. 

[00:29:26] So it sounds like you don't have any problems really, like creating or launching, you know, maybe sometimes you, you know, are not really wanting to market something for a certain reason, but like, do you have any kind of like thoughts about maybe what you learned or some people who come on the show like really wanna create something and they kind of feel like they are like, oh, I can't put that out there.

[00:29:50] Or like we were talking about, um, not specifically this, but it made me think of this like when you, whenever you're courting like a one-on-one client, you know, you get on a Zoom [00:30:00] call with them maybe, and you walk them through your process and you kind of woo them and you know it's lovely. And then they get to know you and like you and trust you.

[00:30:07] And then, you know, a lot of times they sign on with you. But with a digital product, you're not there. So that marketing page or that social post or that reel or whatever it is, really has to do the work for you because you can't be everywhere trying to sell a $47 product. 

[00:30:22] Can't get on a Zoom call, you know, with every person who's interested in a $9 product for sure. You know, because there's, that's not good return on time. So, you know, do you have any thoughts about that kind of marketing piece where you embrace that idea or maybe you're not as worried about it, or like how do you kinda maybe get over that? 

[00:30:43] Deanna: Getting over the fear. Like the fear of.

[00:30:45] Rene: The fear, yeah, fear of putting yourself out there. The fear of putting yourself out there in this way, like you mentioned in the membership community, you're not afraid to give them things because they already know you and like you.

[00:30:56] Deanna: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm.

[00:30:57] Rene: So like how do you, but you've put products out there before, so how did you kind of get maybe over that fear then? 

[00:31:04] Deanna: I mean, even my, I mean, and when I know we said like memberships aren't really like a, maybe not a digital product, but you know, I don't hop on a call to sell those, so it's.

[00:31:13] Rene: Mm-Hmm. Okay. Um, okay, great. 

[00:31:15] Deanna: So I guess. Like you were saying, I mean, I honestly feel like you have to find like what you're comfortable with. So like if being in Canva stresses you out, don't be like, well, I'm gonna make a workbook, or I'm gonna design a planner like yeah, probably not best fit, you know.

[00:31:30] For me and I'm like a huge lover of audio, like I said, podcast, whatever. Um, I feel like people underestimate, especially people, like if you're scared to get on video for sure. Um, audio is the way to go.

[00:31:47] Like I feel like you really connect with people, like you hear their voice. Sometimes people have like a super calming voice. People hear me just sort of being weird like making jokes and making fun of myself. Like people, [00:32:00] I mean my pe people who like me like probably people who listen to me and they're like, who is this girl? She is all over the place. She's bonkers. Get me outta here, unsubscribe. And I am fine with that because.

[00:32:10] Rene: Yeah. That's a good thing. 

[00:32:12] Deanna: Rather, yeah. I would rather show up as myself. It makes my job way more fun and like, especially for me working with clients. Like if we're ever gonna move forward, like, I'm if you're not into it.

[00:32:23] Rene: Yeah. We, it, needs to be a good fit both ways because otherwise, uh, it's gonna be not fun. 

[00:32:28] Deanna 2: So I mean, for me, like it feels pretty easy to record audio. That could feel stressful to someone else. I mean, I think too, just thinking of like, how can you boil it down to like the bare minimum. Like you were saying, like someone's next step. Um, so you don't have a lot of like production value. For me I hate recording my screen and putting me in that circle in the bottom like.

[00:32:50] Rene: Yes. 

[00:32:51] Deanna: I hate being in the circle so I don't turn on the circle. And for a while I felt pressure to turn on the circle and I really have no problem being in reels and showing up on video or like on a podcast that's recording me. That is fine. But when I'm, I'm like, get the circle off here. I'm trying to like show them how to do this thing. I don't wanna also worry about you know what my bangs look like right now. I.

[00:33:11] Rene: Yes. Yes. 

[00:33:12] Deanna: The thing. Yes. So give yourself permission to like do it how it works for you. If you would rather take screenshot, like you're nervous to talk and record a video, or you don't wanna be in the circle, take some screenshots, make a PDF, like it doesn't. Make a Google Doc like nobody cares.

[00:33:29] If the information, I feel like, and this is a graphic designer talking, if the information is valuable. I don't think people care that much what it looks like. Like, don't get me wrong, I do appreciate something that looks a little more pretty as know, artist or whatever, but when it gets down to it, I'm not gonna be like, Ugh, this ugly trash, Yes. Read.

[00:33:53] Rene: Can't do it. 

[00:33:54] Deanna: Would never happen. If it works and if it is like organized in a, in a [00:34:00] way that makes sense and teaches me something. I'm all about, I mean, I watch YouTube tutorials all the time that are not cute or I just, I just want the information, you know? And to me, like when a YouTube video is like 90 seconds, I'm like, yes. Like when I.

[00:34:15] Rene: Yes. 

[00:34:15] Deanna: How do I, how do I do a zap for this? Or like, how do I'm always Googling something tech related, usually like how do I get this tag off someone in ConvertKit, you know, like if I go and the video's 10 minutes, I'm like, Uhuh, that's not the video for me.

[00:34:29] Rene: Yes. 

[00:34:29] Deanna: I scroll.

[00:34:31] Rene: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:34:31] Deanna: One that is like 90 seconds. I'm like, Ooh, is gonna be good. It's gonna literally just pick up right where I need it to and like, tell me what do.

[00:34:38] Rene: Or you, you won't have, even if it doesn't, even if you're like, you watch the 90 seconds, you're like, well, that didn't answer my question. You haven't invested 10 minutes in it. So why do we think then? Because so many people think this, like, my product has to offer all of these things, or people won't think it's worth it. Why do we think this then? Like, it doesn't. Get me there faster.

[00:35:01] Deanna: Yes.

[00:35:02] Rene: Don't give me more right? 

[00:35:03] Deanna: Everybody says it's gonna save you time. You're investing the money to save time. So I think.

[00:35:07] Rene: Yes. 

[00:35:08] Deanna: You don't have to add all the fluff, you don't have to do all the stuff. And if, if, um, you know, making it look pretty is going to pr like keep you from putting it out in the world and helping someone.

[00:35:18] Rene: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:35:19] Deanna: Don't worry about it. Like it doesn't have to look pretty. 

[00:35:22] Rene: You mentioned you've bought a lot of courses. What are the problems that you're seeing? Like what are the reasons maybe that you're not finishing the courses or, you know, can you, can you talk about that? Like maybe what people are doing wrong or anything like that?

[00:35:36] Deanna: Yeah. Um, well first of all, I think people aren't finishing the courses when it's really long like, like we just were saying, like, it's into 10 minute video and ConvertKit. Like, I just need this thing.

[00:35:48] So I think when it starts to get, you know, this whole signature course and this value stack, and you also get this and you also get this and you ask, it's like, okay, there's no, like, we can't, we can't finish it. It's too much.

[00:35:59] Rene: [00:36:00] Mm-Hmm. 

[00:36:00] Deanna: Especially because, I mean, in the beginning when you start your business you have time, right? Like you don't have that many clients yet, so time to do that, and you feel like I'm working. I remember telling my husband for so long, I'm working, I'm working. And he's like, when are we gonna get some money?

[00:36:13] Rene: Yes. When's the money coming? Yes. 

[00:36:15] Deanna: And I'm cool out. I'm working so hard. Um, in the beginning you have time for that, but as your business grows, people talk all the time about client. I always put my client's work first, you know, which another reason I say less content 'cause like, just get some out consistently. Uh, but we get busy with clients or whatever. So it's, it's really not feasible to watch a whole long course.

[00:36:38] Like what we really need is, like you were saying, the next step. Um, and honestly like, like you were saying too, I love that you said that learning from someone who's recently done it, because we need to know, like there's nothing more annoying than like taking a course from someone but then I, and I still have to like Google stuff or like

[00:36:55] Rene: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:36:56] Deanna: it, that makes me kind of crazy. So I feel like I'd love that. I feel like I'm gonna talk about that. I feel like I need to record a little quick episode and stop buying courses. Like, Hey, look for the person who has done it recently because we information. Um. 

[00:37:11] Rene: That goes hand in hand with, I feel like with your small business, like, yeah, why are you buying from, you know, this, this, uber mega famous person? I guess maybe because you found them and maybe you didn't, haven't found the small business person yet. But you know, like think those go hand in hand.

[00:37:25] Deanna: Yeah, growing up, like listening to punk rock, I feel like I'm like, oh, they're like the Ramones or the Sex Pistols.

[00:37:31] Rene: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:37:31] Deanna: They're just the first one. You're like, I'm gonna like

[00:37:33] Rene: Yep. Punk. Yep. 

[00:37:34] Deanna: We go. Yeah, the Ramones are my favorite band.

[00:37:37] Rene: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:37:37] Deanna: I'm not saying the Ramones are bad.

[00:37:39] Rene: Yes. Right. 

[00:37:40] Deanna: Is not a great analogy 'cause.

[00:37:41] Rene: Yeah. There's more to it than that. 

[00:37:43] Deanna: Might say that the, the other people are, but my point is they're just like the first ones you see. And you go smaller and smaller, then you get like more and more punk. And I'm more and more small. Like find those little, little people. 

[00:37:55] I think a lot of us don't come from a teaching background, and if we are trying to teach someone to do something in [00:38:00] this online space, like are there things we are maybe not doing correctly?

[00:38:04] Rene: Are the problems that you're seeing? You're like, oh, I bought this course and like, ugh, it was too long. It was what? Like what are the things we should avoid?

[00:38:11] Deanna: Oh Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I would say, I mean, you, you complimented me on doing it as written or doing as audio, but that's like in the teacher world. I have to do that. It's differentiating for different learning styles.

[00:38:24] I would say if you can do that, incorporating different ways to teach the same thing. Not to a, like don't block yourself and now you can't do the course 'cause you think you have to do it for every single way that anyone might want it. But if you could, it's an easy thing, like I did, I just put the transcripts, I used Descript. 

[00:38:41] It was really easy actually to cut and paste those into the worksheet. Um, so if there's ways you can make it more accessible to different learning styles. I think also breaking it up, like even if it's not a signature course, but let's say it's a, um, like my audio thing is 20 minutes. If it was more than 20 minutes, I probably, it would be like three 10 minute ones or so. Like it's 20 minutes just to get you through that workbook. But 20 minutes in my mind is like a pretty long one episode, funny to say, but it's 2023 and all of us have the like attention span of a goldfish. So I.

[00:39:16] Rene: Ooh, yes. 

[00:39:17] Deanna: Up smaller. Um, and I think that helps you too later if you have to fix something, you only fix like a small piece instead of a big piece. Um, but I also think it helps people also get that dopamine hit of like, I did a thing. Okay, I'm gonna do another five. Like, I did a thing. I did a they can break it up into different days. I mean, again, I'm obsessed with audio, but I really feel like audio is amazing for people to listen on the go.

[00:39:43] So if people listen to your course and walk their dog, if they can be dropping their kids off at soccer practice and listening to your course, I do think having some sort of private podcasting, um, audio component is really valuable in terms of getting it done. 

[00:39:58] Um, they don't have to sit [00:40:00] at their computer and watch a video, but, um, those are like my main one, like, get in, get out. You know, like people just wanna know what they wanna know. And so don't fluff it up. Don't make it fancy.

[00:40:10] Rene: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. In the name of being able to charge or in the name of putting it out there. Like that's the thing, like we're all just adding stuff to the products. Like, because we think we have to, not that it actually adds any value. It, it takes away value because it's it's so much extra. And yeah, I feel that overwhelm.

[00:40:28] I feel like I talk about it in every episode that overwhelm. I don't know if, if other people are feeling it or not, but like, yeah, I feel very like, oh my God. Less less, less, less. How do we find less? 

[00:40:38] Deanna: I mean, I'm just like having a suite of offers. Like, you know, you just do $20 workshops.

[00:40:43] Mm-Hmm. Like think, the ones you want. 

[00:40:46] Yeah. Think of module of your signature course as a workshop, you know, or even every lesson. And they're like all on this beautiful little sales page, and they can like bundle them somehow.

[00:40:57] Rene: Yes. You can bundle, yes. 

[00:40:59] Deanna: Like pick five. I don't know this would even work in tech, but I'm like. Could they just like pick their five favorite? Like what is that on Bath.

[00:41:05] Yeah. Maybe. 

[00:41:05] Like buy three get three.

[00:41:06] Yes. 

[00:41:07] Treat it a signature lotion at Bath Bodyworks. But just outside the box of like, how can I start and how can I out? 

[00:41:15] Oh, I know what I was gonna It's kind of a funny story long time ago, got a lead magnet from someone and I was like so disappointed, which is seems like follow along in case you're like, what? This is the opposite of, we're already nervous be a disappointment, but I just wanna say, this is an example.

[00:41:33] This is the only time I've ever been disappointed by a lead magnet, and it was for my kid, it was like a pra, like a something on Pinterest or something on Valentine during the month of February. Like you write a love note to your kid every day and put it on their door and they were like, we have a downloadable like prompts for you to do this. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. Then I won't have to like, you know, mental labor for whatever. Like, let me get this download. It's gonna save me so much time. And the download [00:42:00] was just, I love you because dot, dot, dot

[00:42:03] No. No. On a piece of paper. And I was like, mm. Hold up.

[00:42:07] And I felt like super tricked. And, but I have gotten so many downloads. I've bought so many courses, whatever, whatever. Some are better than others, but like literally, that's the only time I've ever been like, ah, this is a rip. Like this is not cool.

[00:42:22] So I just feel like your listeners are probably saying, yeah, that was not cool. Like, we all know that was a weird one. Nothing else have I ever felt like I, I'm also giving a pep talk to myself right now. Like I don't need to feel pressure, like to be so good. Or else they're gonna be mad at me.

[00:42:37] As long as it's not you saying you're giving us 14 prompts, and it's just, I love you.

[00:42:40] It is one. Dot dot dot. And also it wasn't even pro. I'm like, that's just the beginning of the, the sentence.

[00:42:47] Rene: Exactly. That's not a prompt. It's not like something to think about. Right.

[00:42:51] Deanna: So just saying like when you're getting nervous, you're making your product and you're I don't know if this is gonna be good enough, or you're a lead magnet, or whatever you're doing, just remember that story and be oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:43:02] Rene: And you can communicate like you, so I would say like that is, the communication was off there. 

[00:43:08] Like she was saying 14 prompts, that's not 14 prompts. But for your product, like if you're communicating this is what's included, these are the benefits that you will see after you complete this. Like I think you're setting those expectations.

[00:43:23] And then once you've set those expectations properly.

[00:43:26] Yeah.

[00:43:27] Then people will see that you have met them and they will be happy because it, it did do the thing that you said it was going to do. So I think we, that's, you know, people are like, Ugh, sales page, ugh, marketing. But that is the purpose of it, is to set those expectations in the potential buyer's mind so they know what they're getting.

[00:43:47] They're like, okay, I know what I'm getting here. This sounds good to me. This sounds like a problem I have that I'd love a solution to. So, yay. So I feel like that is, if you set those expectations properly, then [00:44:00] I think you'll, you'll be good. 

[00:44:01] Deanna: Um, I will also say just in, in terms of like not being a perfectionist when you're trying to do this stuff, I've had people comment on the gif course, like, me up in Instagram or whatever, and just say, it's so refreshing. Uh, you're so funny. Um. Stuff like that. And so I did start to peek it. I've been telling you, I'm thinking about up updating it, I did sort of watch one of 'em the other day and my dog was like scratching at my door to get in, and I'm like, hold on, I'm gonna let my dog in.

[00:44:31] And I did pause it. I was using Loom to record my screen. I paused it and then I, when I came back on, I was like, sorry about that, but we're just dah, dah, dah, dah.

[00:44:39] And I just kept it I was like, you know what? If I was teaching a live course, you know people have to take a sip of water or people like, it's okay to be human. It doesn't have

[00:44:48] Rene: To be real. Yes. 

[00:44:50] Deanna: Produced. Yeah. And actually, and some almost like it better 'cause they're like, oh wow.

[00:44:56] Rene: She's like me. She has to take a drink too.

[00:44:59] Deanna: Yes.

[00:45:00] Rene: She has a dog too. Yes, exactly. 

[00:45:03] Deanna: She's trying to record the podcast.

[00:45:05] Yes. Yes. It's okay to let that, that show through. Especially bringing it back to what you were just saying, especially if your course is still delivering you said it was gonna deliver, then nobody, like I was saying, nobody really cares if it's super fancy. Nobody cares if you let your dog in, but they care about, if you say you're giving us prompts for Valentine's Day. 

[00:45:26] Rene: Where are they? Right, right. Yes. Um, so it, it did you hear the word of the year is authentic?

[00:45:33] Deanna: I did. I and I feel like with that word, that's 

[00:45:37] Rene: Well, I think of it like real, like it's just real, like whatever your real is, like this is me. Like if you see, if you were to run into me at the grocery store, like this is probably what I'd be wearing.

[00:45:49] Probably not these flannel pants that I have on, but this is what I would look like.

[00:45:54] You know, like it just, you know, like there's not a difference between like online Rene and like [00:46:00] in-person, Rene, maybe makeup, a little bit of makeup, but you know, like, it's like what you see, I guess is what you get. 

[00:46:05] And I think that that is, that makes it easier for you to make that connection, you know, to provide those services and products to people to solve those problems that you know how to solve.

[00:46:17] Deanna: And I would argue it makes everything else in your business so much easier.

[00:46:21] Rene: Yes. Yeah. It's way easier to be me. Yeah. Yes. Totally. 

[00:46:25] Deanna: Everything else like go you have to Google stuff you like. Yeah. Having a business is hard. So like if can just be yourself, then.

[00:46:32] Rene: Mm-Hmm, yeah. Yeah. And kind of tune out that noise like you, you mentioned before about yeah all the, the, the overwhelm, but also, yeah, the do it this way, do it this way, do it this way, do it this way. It's oh wait, I can't do it all the ways, all those ways are contradictory. So yeah. 

[00:46:47] How do I pick one, what makes the most sense to me? And like tuning it out and kind of tuning into yeah what works for you.

[00:46:53] Deanna: Yeah. And then like, call it your signature process. And now you sound super fancy.

[00:46:57] Rene: Give it a name. Yep, exactly.

[00:46:59] Deanna: Like, oh, I don't wanna do all that.

[00:47:00] Mm-Hmm. 

[00:47:01] My own signature process.

[00:47:03] Rene: Exactly. And then you'll attract the people who, that, that resonates. Like you draw those people into your orbit.

[00:47:09] Yeah. And that, that's the community. And that's, we don't need, I don't need to sell 8 billion copies of whatever it is. Like, I just like, yeah. I wanna draw the people who are interested in what I'm interested in and the people that I can help based on like what I know and what I like and, and like the gifts that I've been given.

[00:47:25] Like, I, I just think that that is, it's very oh, what's the word? Like, it's, it's enriching. Like it enriches my life to be able to do that. So, uh, I'm not for everybody. 

[00:47:36] Deanna: Well, yeah, and also, I mean, obviously we all wanna make money, but I think of us. In the online business space a lot. Maybe. I don't know. I have nothing to back that up. Sometimes I act like I have some data in my back pocket and I have nothing. But I do think lot of people start their business to have more freedom

[00:47:52] Mm-Hmm.

[00:47:53] and not necessarily to like be a billion dollar business or a million dollar business, be a celebrity entrepreneur. Like [00:48:00] when I actually think about that, I'm like I don't, I actually

[00:48:04] Yeah, no. 

[00:48:05] Want to be that. Would I like to win the lottery and just get a bunch of money? Sure. But I don't wanna run a team. I

[00:48:10] Mm-Hmm. 

[00:48:11] to like be a like Instagram celebrity. Like I don't really wanna be on Instagram very much at all, to be honest.

[00:48:18] Mm-Hmm. 

[00:48:18] Already. So. When I think about it, like also one of the celebrity entrepreneurs, like has a lake house or had a lake house back when I listened to her a lot and I was like, oh, I want a lake house like her. I mean, I did grow up my, my grandpa had like a mobile home by the lake and I learned how to water ski.

[00:48:34] So I was like, oh, I wanna own a lake house. I'm looking at my husband who like can't fix anything around the house. I'm we don't, we can barely take care of our own house. We are not gonna own a lake house.

[00:48:45] I would like to get a nice Airbnb for a week, once year. And I'm like, oh, look at that. Look at how my dream mm-hmm like went down. Like now I don't have to make a million dollars.

[00:48:55] Right. 

[00:48:55] Less than that and just have a nice vacation. Doesn't that sound nice? So I think also we get caught up in the hype of, oh, digital products like passive income, like these people made millions. I can make millions and all these followers and. But like, really, what do you need? So that's my punk rock, little anti-capitalist speech.

[00:49:12] Yeah. 

[00:49:13] What do you actually need? Because when you actually crunch the numbers, I think it also takes a lot of pressure off too, where you're like, I don't need that many clients. I don't need that many followers. It doesn't matter.

[00:49:24] Rene: And especially as a service provider, 'cause the show is targeted towards service providers. Um, if you, if you kind of like know the goal of the product, if the goal of the product is to just get more one-on-one clients or to have a steady stream of one-on-one clients, or to have the best fit one-on-one clients, or to have higher paying one-on-one clients, whatever it is, your group or your membership or whatever, like those products, as long as they're meeting that goal.

[00:49:48] Yeah. How many do you have to sell? Like you probably don't need to sell 8 billion. That's probably just too much work. Yeah. And like you mentioned, the lake house. I don't wanna clean another house. I clean this house. 

[00:49:58] Deanna: No, barely clean [00:50:00] my house. But yeah, like, I don't know. I would really be failing

[00:50:03] Well, and my series are called like f that mm-hmm definitely not for everyone, and anti hussle, which is like for people who are trying to grow a business, might be like, what is this?

[00:50:13] This is gonna waste my time talking. They're not even gonna talk about business. They're only gonna talk about holidays. Like, get outta here with that. I don't get huge signups. Like I can't be like, I got a thousand downloads every time I do a season. But I don't want a thousand downloads. I'd rather hundred.

[00:50:28] I'd rather have hundred people sign up who are like, yes, F that.

[00:50:31] Rene: Yes. This. Yes. 

[00:50:32] Deanna: Anti-hustle. Those are my people. So for me, course, I could come up with an idea for a private podcast that would get a thousand probably or closer to that.

[00:50:43] Mm-Hmm. 

[00:50:43] I don't want those thousand, I want the hundred because like you're saying, it's my, like I do one-on-one work, so I don't need. I don't need a million cl, I can't handle a million clients and I don't want to be an agency owner. So I want, like, it's not my thing. 

[00:50:56] I feel like that's from like, agency owner to me is like going from teacher to being principal. Like that's two different jobs. 

[00:51:01] Rene: Oh yeah. 

[00:51:02] Deanna: I do now is really fun for me at my desk and I get to be creative. And then if I had an agency, I would be the manager and I'm like.

[00:51:08] Rene: Yes. don't wanna manage people. I am not good at that. I'm sure I'm not good at that. 

[00:51:12] And let's just not find out either. Yeah. Like I have a kid to manage. Right. Like 

[00:51:17] Deanna: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:51:18] Rene: As a mom, you're already managing people. Like, I don't need to manage anymore people. 

[00:51:22] Deanna: Yes. I only manage people the age of, you know, eight.

[00:51:26] Rene: Right. Too funny. Okay, so tell us, um, can you give us some advice?

[00:51:31] So for people who have not created any products yet, they're thinking about it, they've been thinking about it, they're like, oh, I don't know what to do. Should I do this? I don't know all the things that they are thinking about. What are some things that you recommend for them based on things you've done or things you wish you hadn't done?

[00:51:47] Anything like that?

[00:51:49] Deanna: I mean, I would say just like open up a Google Doc and just brain dump it. Like I love a good brain dump. Just get it out there. And then our whole conversation, I'm like, [00:52:00] and then you either have to like step up to a mic, do a screen recording, or keep working on that Google doc and like write it down.

[00:52:08] Like I just think do it. Just do it. Because you know what? It's gonna be a huge learning process. 'cause you're gonna have to go through the whole thing of like, okay. Like I think it's funny in online business you're like, oh I've said to my husband before, I just need to send an email. And then in the email I wanted to link maybe a new workshop and I'm oh, I can't link that because I don't have a ThriveCart link and then when I the ThriveCart thing I'm like, oh, I wanna set this up so that it adds them to ConvertKit. 

[00:52:35] And then wanna do that, I have to make sure that there's a tag for them for buying that in ConvertKit. And then I have to make a sequence that sends them the like, Hey, you just bought the thing.

[00:52:43] Thank you so much. But then I also wanna put them in an automation that puts them on my goes through my welcome sequence and onto my thing. So I was like, lemme just send this email real quick. I just have to add a link. And then it's like a million other things. So like honestly, just who cares? Make your first little quick 20 minute, 15 minute, two page. Simple. I was gonna say simple as a pimple. 'cause this is what me say, like, gross, simple as a pimple. Um, little workshop or course. 

[00:53:11] And maybe don't call it a course, like, call something else. And I guess it could, we're not just talking about courses, like you said. That's where my, my brain goes.

[00:53:17] But that's why I call 'em workshops because to me that feels like less. And I workshop also implies that you're gonna learn something, you're gonna get something done. Like to me, means at the end you're gonna know how to do something.

[00:53:28] Mm-Hmm. 

[00:53:29] Just do it. Because all that other stuff that I just listed that was probably like, it seemed like a comedy routine, but it was actually all real stuff that I would have to do. Um, that's all gonna be the same. 

[00:53:41] So like you've ironed out so many kinks that the next time all you really have to do is figure out the course and then repeat those steps. But just remember it used to take so long to do all those steps and now I just like rattled them off in two seconds. 'cause I've done it so many times being like, okay, this new thing.

[00:53:57] This new thing. So, I mean, as trite as [00:54:00] it sounds like, just get started. Just do it. 

[00:54:04] Rene: Yeah. Once you do it the first time, I feel like you're then like, okay. I think it's like being a parent, like you're never a parent and then all of a sudden you have a baby. You're like, okay, yeah. I see what we're dealing with now. Yeah. I could not have learned this from a book. I needed to do it myself.

[00:54:20] Deanna: Yes. And you're gonna keep getting better and better, and you're gonna have more ideas and new ideas, and you're gonna wanna tweak. So it's like in my art class, I would have students like, you know, I would do all the setup of the lesson and you know, it gets to the time where you're like, okay, get started. they would inevitably be a kid or two, like sitting there with their, know, sketch paper in front of them. I'd be like, what are you doing? They'd say, I'm thinking. And I would be like, you don't, no, you can't just think and like, you're just gonna have a masterpiece. I'm like, here's Sketch paper.

[00:54:50] I feel like it was newsprint. It was like really cheap, um, paper that I'm like, you can have as many sheets of this as you want, but you have to start drawing something in order to progress in this process. Like you cannot sit here and think, and I'm sure there were teenage moody teenagers. They're probably like, I wasn't thinking, I just wanted you to leave me alone. Um, but I always think of that in business too. 'cause we can just get caught up like thinking it through and like analyzing it. And I

[00:55:17] Rene: To death. Yeah. So much analyzing. 

[00:55:21] Deanna: And it's not gonna get better until you just start doing, like, you're not even gonna know what you don't know until you start doing it. And then you're like, oh, oh, I didn't know you could do that.

[00:55:29] I mean, I still every day am like, huh, didn't know you could do that. Or yeah. Whatever. Uh, and you're gonna figure out what you don't like doing, what you do like doing. Like maybe you're listening to this and you're like, I've never thought about doing an audio.

[00:55:41] Right. Like, try it. And you might like, Ugh, I actually did hate that. Or you might be like, oh my god, it's my new thing. 

[00:55:47] Yes. These out. You know? Um, so I think just, just doing it as, silly as that sounds, um, just do it to keep doing it, if that makes sense.

[00:55:58] Rene: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And to get better at it [00:56:00] and to see like, oh yeah, what worked? Like, oh, I really liked that. Or, oh, I didn't like that. Or, oh, that just didn't work. I should try something different next time. But you're not gonna know that until you do it. Like we can talk all day long about all the things, but until you just go out and do it, you know, that stuff doesn't really like, it has to take hold in that way. So hopefully this is inspiration. 

[00:56:19] Deanna: Can I add one more thing? Just remember too, that like the conversion rate is so low, like you can it.

[00:56:26] Mm-Hmm.

[00:56:27] Like what is it? Like 2% would be like normal, like.

[00:56:29] Rene: I would say another guest had said maybe 4%. One of her pages had a 4% rate. So just for people like, so that means if you have a hundred visitors, two, three or four people might buy. So that's kind of.

[00:56:42] Deanna: Just keep that in mind. Like I remember being new and, and actually I looked up the stats 'cause I was getting data for you. I had 87 subscribers on my list when I first came out with gif it up.

[00:56:55] Um. So like if I sold one, I guess I did at lunch, that was like a huge success, but you still can get in your head and be like, only one person bought it.

[00:57:03] Rene: Yes. 

[00:57:04] Deanna: But if you only 87 people on your list. It was pretty good.

[00:57:07] Like, so just knowing that, and I feel like when I started learning that, I was like, oh, 'cause everyone makes sounds so easy and passive

[00:57:14] Mm-Hmm. 

[00:57:15] all you gotta do is make this course. And then just like dinging ding, ding, you're gonna get all these gonna be so rich. And, and I remember thinking like, why have 87, like 40 people bought it, that'd be cool. Like 40 people are not gonna buy it.

[00:57:27] Think like, you don't know. Mm-Hmm. Like maybe half of them will buy it. Yep. 

[00:57:32] And maybe in the back of my head, even like maybe all of them will, you know, like you kind of think like, maybe, and it's just not the case.

[00:57:39] So just knowing, going into it that like, it is definitely a numbers game and, um, you, you know, you have to have an audience to sell it to. So I'd also say maybe don't go too hard on the courses. Like maybe work a little, make one, build some like you can, you can do a little pattern. My kids like patterns.

[00:57:56] Rene: Build that audience. Yeah. And social media, I would say, I don't know what the conversion rates on social [00:58:00] media are, but maybe less than that.

[00:58:02] Like, I think people think like, oh, I have, you know, a thousand Instagram followers. I don't know that you'll see the same conversion as you would on a webpage or from an email list. Yeah. That. 

[00:58:14] Deanna: Even like your email list, like, I mean, a 50% open rate of 87 people.

[00:58:19] Mm-Hmm. 

[00:58:20] can't do math, so we'll just say 45. We'll round it up to 90 say. So then that's 45. So like, yeah, it's even like they gotta see it and you gotta repeat yourself and all the things.

[00:58:30] I don't know, it's just. I'm like, oh my God, business is so hard. What are we doing, Why'd we choose this life?

[00:58:36] Rene: It's easier to do it when it fits us right? 

[00:58:39] And we are interested and we are bringing the people around us who like the same things and who want the same things. It's energizing, like I think Yes, it's hard. It's hard, like it's, it's for sure hard but it make it easier on yourself. Like make it easy on yourself, like be yourself.

[00:58:56] That's just easier for you to do like, and the things that we talked about. So, yeah. Okay. Cool. All right, so can you tell us where we can find you online?

[00:59:05] Deanna: Yeah. Um, well, my website, deannaseymour.com has like all the things except for gif it up, yeah. To kind dig it out. I, I could look at your site map

[00:59:17] Um, and I'm on Instagram @thedeannaseymour which is my favorite platform to hang out on. Um, I dabble in some of the other ones, but who has time for it all? So, instagram I hang out the most.

[00:59:30] Rene: Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the show today.

[00:59:33] Deanna: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:59:34] Rene: Hey, thanks for listening. I'd love to continue the conversation in your inbox. Email SUBSCRIBE to hey at yfdp.show or sign up in the show notes to get bi monthly emails about how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. Can't wait to see you there.