[00:00:00] Samantha: I created my first product just over two years ago, so it was early October 2021 and Black Friday was coming up and I saw all these people hosting, like how to run a Black Friday event that sells events. And I was like, I can write the emails around that in like 12 seconds flat. What if I just write it and then make it a template and sell it to people?

[00:00:21] And then a Black Friday sale is basically just a flash sale. Just you talk about turkeys and stuff.

[00:00:28] Rene: Yeah.

[00:00:29] Samantha: So, so I created both of those templates. And published them. I don't even think I published 'em on my website. I think I just reached out to people and invoiced 'em individually. 'cause I was like, I've gotta get this out the door.

[00:00:41] Respond, if you want this, I'll send you an invoice and I'll send it to you on Google Drive. So, um, I'm super not tech savvy and I would rather do something and test it and just get it out there and make sure it's something that people want rather than to like figure out how to code a shop on my website, because by then it would've been Easter.

[00:00:58] We would've missed Black Friday by a long shot. 

[00:01:01] Rene: Hey everyone. Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing one on one work, and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. I'm your host Rene Morozowich. Let's go!

[00:01:29] Rene: Hey everybody. Today I am here with Samantha Burmeister, and Sam is the founder and lead copywriter at Nomad Copy Agency and Copy On Demand. Get copy that sounds like you, but better. I love that slogan. That's very cool. because I always want it to sound like me, but I do want it to sound better, so that's perfect.

[00:01:46] Samantha: Yeah, there's some like undertones of that. Like it's gonna sell better. It's gonna.

[00:01:50] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:01:52] Samantha: Just amplify your personality when you're not around, which is exactly what copy does.

[00:01:56] Rene: Yeah, it kind of packs it all in, like, yeah, into, into just that one little [00:02:00] message. And like, people understand it quickly, which like, I think is really important. A lot of people are like, well, what do you do? And then they kind of give this like really long rambly sort of thing that like nobody really understands, but like that's is very succinct.

[00:02:11] So kudos on that. I really like that. But anyway, thanks for being here today. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about you, like in your own words, like your business or your personal life, whatever you wanna share.

[00:02:21] Samantha: Yeah, sure thing. So as you said, I'm the founder and lead copywriter at Nomad Copy Agency, and I love to come back to that nomad copy because again, succinct, it says everything about me as well. So I'm a digital nomad, which means I spend most of my year traveling. Um, I started my business when I was traveling full-time.

[00:02:38] Now I'm out and about about six months out of the year, most of the time outta the country. I didn't necessarily choose copywriting to fit into that path, but I also didn't necessarily fit that path around copywriting either. Um, my corporate career was in sales and I wrote a travel blog on the side, and when I quit my corporate job, people started asking me to write their sales copy for them.

[00:03:01] So it was something that happened very naturally. For me, and, you know, kind of, I don't know if grassroots is the right word, but that's how I got here. Um, back in 2019, I quit my corporate job while I was on a beach in Vietnam and decided to stay. I had a backpack to last me two weeks, and I stayed in Southeast Asia for three months, without a computer actually.

[00:03:22] So I was working from internet cafes, and this is 2019, like everybody had an iPhone at that point. Like, it, it wasn't the travel blogging years of 2007, you know.

[00:03:31] Rene: Yeah.

[00:03:32] Samantha: Um, so yeah, I started my business really scrappy, um, and have grown from there. I've got a great membership now. I do a ton of done for you copy and help people all around the world have copy that sounds like them, but converts better.

[00:03:47] Rene: Yeah. That's awesome. And I love this. I've been in business a little bit longer, um, but it seems like really like a quick turnaround for like, you know, offering services and having products and having a membership. Like it [00:04:00] sounds like you're really kind of hitting home for people, like, you know, really resonating with people and able to offer them you know, what they're looking for, so I love that. So I wanna hear all about your first product. Um, you have several products up on your website now, and I think you mentioned that one or two of these was your first product or product. 

[00:04:16] So do you wanna tell us about those, um, kind of like how they came to be, why you created them, you know, were people asking you for them or you were just like, you know, this is what everybody needs, or, you know, tell us about those.

[00:04:27] Samantha: Yeah, so I created my first product just over two years ago, so it was early October 2021 and Black Friday was coming up and I saw all these people hosting, like how to run a Black Friday event that sells events. And I was like, I can write the emails around that in like 12 seconds flat. What if I just write it and then make it a template and sell it to people?

[00:04:49] And then a Black Friday sale is basically just a flash sale. Just you talk about turkeys and stuff.

[00:04:56] Rene: Yeah.

[00:04:57] Samantha: So, so I created both of those templates. And published them. I don't even think I published 'em on my website. I think I just reached out to people and invoiced 'em individually. 'cause I was like, I've gotta get this out the door.

[00:05:09] Respond, if you want this, I'll send you an invoice and I'll send it to you on Google Drive. So, um, I'm super not tech savvy and I would rather do something and test it and just get it out there and make sure it's something that people want rather than to like figure out how to code a shop on my website, because by then it would've been Easter.

[00:05:27] We would've missed Black Friday by a long shot. So so that's how I did that. I realized that it templates were something and still are something that were in demand. So since then I've built out to, I think about eight templates that I sell. Um, yeah. But those were my first, and that's, that's how I did it.

[00:05:46] Like I said, did it. I think people say do it messy a lot, and I don't necessarily know that it was messy, but I had to do it fast. And so it was definitely a done is better than perfect. I think the templates are great. Was my [00:06:00] method great? Probably not, but it's become great. So. 

[00:06:02] Rene: Yeah. 

[00:06:03] Samantha: Yeah.

[00:06:04] Rene: Yeah. That's awesome. So who did you reach out to then? Like you mentioned, like not even really putting them on your website for sale or anything, any sort of like cart experience. And you mentioned like respond if you want them. So like were you using social media? Did you have an email list?

[00:06:16] Like who were the people that you were reaching out to?

[00:06:19] Samantha: Yeah, great question. I lean heavily on my email list, which I think is probably pretty natural for a copywriter.

[00:06:24] Rene: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. That's awesome. I mean, a good, you'd be kind of surprised though. Some people like don't have a list. Or maybe early on, you know, they're just starting their list, so, you know, this maybe isn't the same, they wouldn't have the same results because they don't, they haven't built up the list.

[00:06:37] So how have you, how have you built the list up to, you know, be able to offer something like that? Like, and how often do you email people and tell us a little bit about the list, I guess.

[00:06:48] Samantha: Yeah, so I email my people at least twice a week. Um, I try my best to include lessons and things that are like very top of mind in my emails because I think everybody's taught. If you're gonna nurture your list, you need to provide value. And that value so often looks like giving away the farm for free.

[00:07:07] And I don't do that, but I can educate people on what to a point that they understand that I know the how and the why. 

[00:07:14] Rene: Okay. 

[00:07:15] Samantha: That that's what they need to, that's the gap between knowing me and working with me. Um, so I have a great time. I love my list. Um, I get a ton of responses. I, um, talk to them like I'm talking to, in my mind, I picture it as like a group of five people that I know either through Instagram and interact with or whatever, but I write to and I.

[00:07:38] They're people that I know personally. It's not just my ideal client. 

[00:07:43] Rene: Yeah. 

[00:07:43] Samantha: Um, so, 

[00:07:45] Rene: Jennifer 

[00:07:45] Samantha: you know, like I 

[00:07:46] Rene: Yeah. 

[00:07:46] Samantha: Exactly.

[00:07:47] Rene: Yeah.

[00:07:49] Samantha: Exactly. Um, which is fine too, if that's how somebody thinks of it, but that's how I think of it, is that I'm just writing a quick note to those people. So,

[00:07:56] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:07:57] Samantha: um, then when it comes time to sell and [00:08:00] things get a little bit longer, I've already earned their trust that they're gonna read my emails.

[00:08:05] Um, but even so, when I launched that first product, I don't think my email list was over 500. I could promise you actually that it wasn't over 500 because I was still on the free version of Mailchimp at the time.

[00:08:16] Rene: Okay. Nice.

[00:08:17] Samantha: Yeah.

[00:08:17] Rene: Nice. So building that list and you know, being able to go to people and say like, Hey, I see, you know, did you say like, Hey, I see you guys are needing this.

[00:08:26] Like I see that your Black Friday stuff is lacking. Or you know, like how did you kind of position that?

[00:08:34] Samantha: Yeah, so I was attending 'cause I was exploring doing a Black Friday sale of my own. I never did, still haven't. Um, I just really like hanging out with my family and you can do both, but for me it was one or the other. So I chose hanging out with my family. Um, but I was attending these like webinars and stuff of like how to plan it and like you probably already have your Black Friday offer.

[00:08:55] All you have to do is pull it out of like this portion of your course or. You know what, whatever. So I had a lot of the language around what went into a Black Friday sale, but what I kept not seeing was like, and then, you know, the, the advice would be like, and then you just email your list about it and that's where it ended.

[00:09:15] Rene: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:09:15] Samantha: For me, I was like, I think there's a gap in like what to email your list. And even, I think there was a nurture email before that of like. Are you experiencing the same thing? Yes or no? And just having those buttons to interact with in my emails as well. Um, so my theories were being corroborated by my list.

[00:09:35] Now did everybody that pushed those buttons buy? Also no. Um, but it was a good way to like test the waters too by emailing them before, during, and after the sale about that topic because it was still top of mind for them.

[00:09:49] Rene: So you emailed the list and you know, so, so Black Friday passes you know, and then, you know, whatever. So what happens next year [00:10:00] then around, you know, before, let's say October, before Black Friday? Like are you, are you marketing to the list again, who people who haven't bought, or do you have it on your website?

[00:10:11] Do you have some sort of like nurture stuff go pointing to it now? Like what have you done, I guess after that initial launch?

[00:10:19] Like how do you market it ongoing, I guess now?

[00:10:22] Samantha: Yeah, so I don't have a funnel leading to that template specifically, but I do have opt-ins that are free that typically I call them guides. So then my guides lead to those templates, those paid templates. So for example, a guide for how to run a flash sale. Then the template is gonna have all of the words that you copy and paste, and you can have your entire flash sale written in an hour.

[00:10:43] That's, so they lead to each other. But for Black Friday, the following year, I actually had fewer sales than the first year because my birthday is mid-October and I started putting it out there as like I did a flash sale on my Black Friday emails. So wrap your mind mind around how meta that is.

[00:11:00] But, um, so mid-October, I did them half off and I didn't sell very many at all, and my email list had doubled at that point. And I think I was hitting people too early in the game and then reminded people early November because that's when people were really down to crunch time. And my guess, I didn't do market research around this, but my guess is that I then devalued them back three weeks ago in October when I was, um.

[00:11:33] Rene: Oh. 

[00:11:34] Samantha: Pushing them. So I think I then devalued them and then like a week before Black Friday itself, or a week before Thanksgiving itself. So it was that like last two weekdays of, or workdays before Thanksgiving, um, I sold like three more. Um, so it was people who were really down to crunch.

[00:11:52] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:11:53] Samantha: Um, but I don't think I sold 10 that second year because I was like, oh, everybody wants this around Thanksgiving.

[00:11:59] But [00:12:00] my messaging had changed and I wasn't quite as close to my audience. I was making assumptions that everybody plans things six weeks out like I do. Um, and a lot of people were, you know, making kind of a last minute money grab instead. So.

[00:12:14] Rene: Yeah.

[00:12:15] Samantha: Yeah. 

[00:12:15] Rene: Interesting. That's so interesting. All of that is very interesting. So these are time sensitive. Well not the flash sale email. 'cause I guess you can do flash sale anytime, but the Black Friday email is, is a sensitive, time sensitive sort of product that yeah, you can't tell people in like January, like, Hey, your Black Friday people are are like, uh, that's a problem for, for future me.

[00:12:33] Right? That's a problem for another day. But your other products look like they are not time sensitive. They can be used at any time. So do you wanna tell us like kind of what, what were, what was the next product maybe, or what were the

[00:12:46] next bunch of products and kind of how did you, how did you decide what to do next? And then did you follow the same format? And I know I'm asking you a lot of questions, but and then when did you start putting them on your website, like to offer them? So like, pick any of those questions.

[00:13:00] Samantha: Yeah, for sure. So, um, around that time also hired a business manager. She basically is my right hand everything. And she has design skills in Squarespace, which is where my website is hosted. Um, so she was able to create, and then we use ThriveCart now for checkout because I've also learned that my biggest, um, revenue generator from my digital products is through affiliates.

[00:13:30] Um.

[00:13:30] Rene: Ooh.

[00:13:31] Samantha: So we set all of the products up on ThriveCart, but on Squarespace had a page with images that then links out in a separate window to ThriveCart. So that's the mechanics behind it, which I'm happy to dig a little bit further into, but I think for the safe sake of it surface level, but I guess that's the, if anybody wants to reach out, feel free.

[00:13:52] Um, but then it was the same thing. Regarding how I decided what to [00:14:00] create next was what was I writing a ton of for clients or what were people coming to me and then eliminating themselves as clients because of price, but what were they asking for? And a lot of that was templates leading to their free things.

[00:14:15] It's hard to justify the cost of a copywriter. So then my next one was creating a high converting challenge sequence.

[00:14:23] Rene: Hmm.

[00:14:23] Samantha: So whether your challenge is three days, five days, whatever, the emails rounded are relatively the same. Um, and word was getting out that my templates were great because it's not just during the challenge or during the flash sale.

[00:14:37] I always focus on leading up to and not leaving your people hanging after. 'cause you get so exhausted from writing all these emails that you disappear for a month and then come back with another sale later, you know? So I tried to keep it very organic of like, what are people doing? What am I seeing and what do I feel compelled to write?

[00:14:55] Um, like people have asked me to write sales page templates and I just, sales pages are so niche for different, um, industries and different products that I just. I've stuck almost exclusively to emails yet, or emails so far. Um, but what I also started seeing was that I was writing a lot of emails to my affiliates and I started that whole, I bought ThriveCart and did the whole affiliate program.

[00:15:21] So I took all of that copy and made the affiliate copy pack, so how to invite your people to be an affiliate. And so it's still email templates. It's just. You're not necessarily selling with that one, but you're still inspiring action. Um, I had several clients ask me to write inclusivity guidelines for their businesses because they were growing and that one was huge.

[00:15:44] The people who are using that the best are people who have businesses, that they have people who are writing copy for them consistently or are doing, they're either on a long-term contract or they're full-time employees and they're writing the copy on behalf of the business.

[00:15:59] [00:16:00] And that business owner has to stand behind whatever that person writes, so they need to write it well. So creating a template that says. This is what our business does and doesn't stand for. Then having inclusivity policies that go on their website, land acknowledgements that go on their website, a do this, not that for the team to refer back to, um, so that they're not accidentally making ableist, racist, et cetera.

[00:16:27] Comments like that inclusivity guide took off. Um, and I've seen so many businesses. Leaning into that themselves, whether they purchased the template from me or not. Um, but I guess all of that to say that it was where I already saw people looking I just put the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that they were already on.

[00:16:46] Rene: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And that's so important and I think a lot of people don't think of that. Um, yeah. That's fantastic. I wanted to ask about the affiliate. You mentioned that another source of revenue for your business, is affiliates. So yeah. ThriveCart's a very common affiliate. Do you have some other ones that you're using?

[00:17:03] I mean, you don't have to specify, but like, do you have kind of a, a, a chunk of them and then are they part of your, of your email sequences, like, Hey, you bought this template, you may also need this

[00:17:14] Samantha: Mm-Hmm.

[00:17:15] Rene: software, or something like that?

[00:17:17] Samantha: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. And what I really like, this is not sponsored by ThriveCart, I swear I just using ThriveCart. Um, but they do such a great job of having the opportunity for upsells, right on a sales page, as well as in order bump page as the thank you page. So I've seen a lot of success from that because one of the ways that I've built my email list significantly is with the flash sale emails.

[00:17:39] I have made those free for several bundles, so I sell them, or I guess I used to sell them for $127. People haven't bought it as much recently 'cause people are getting it for free and then seeing the rest of the things in my shop. With that, I offer an add-on of the abandoned cart emails, so that happens within ThriveCart.

[00:17:58] So usually they're $27, [00:18:00] but if you buy them when you get your flash sale emails, which are typically free, it's only an additional $19. And then they go over to an order bump page, and because they've then used my stuff and I want them, those funnels all lead towards my membership, which is called Copy on Demand.

[00:18:17] So the thank you page is an opportunity to join Copy on Demand. So if people have been in my circle for a while before they buy anything, they'll know about Copy on Demand. And that page has had a lot of success because it's a huge discount on Copy on Demand. But otherwise it's their first exposure and they learn a little something about Copy on Demand, and then the following emails don't surprise them.

[00:18:39] So there's been a lot of opportunity there. And then regarding affiliates. All my affiliate links, a lot of people will cookie them, which means like track their affiliates, um, for 30 days. I do mine for 90 because I want my affiliates to be super, super incentivized to send people my way. So I would rather give them a portion of something rather than nothing, of nothing if people don't come to me.

[00:19:07] So. 

[00:19:07] Rene: Nice. 

[00:19:08] Those funnels continue to benefit my affiliates as well.

[00:19:12] Rene: Yeah. So you're doing affiliates both ways then. You are an affiliate for ThriveCart or ConvertKit or whatever, and you have the ability for people to send customers your way for your own products.

[00:19:24] Samantha: Mm-Hmm. Yep. 

[00:19:26] Rene: Okay. Yeah. Making sure that at least the audience is clear that like, yes, you can probably more easily sign up to be an affiliate for ThriveCart or whatever.

[00:19:35] And then yeah, as your products are taking off, have an affiliate program for people to promote your products on your behalf, so.

[00:19:42] Samantha: Yeah. And I know that there are other affiliate programs out there. Probably the second most popular that I see is called SamCart. Um, I'm not, I'm not an affiliate for it. I don't recommend it, not because I don't think it's great, but because I don't know it. So anything that I'm an affiliate for, [00:20:00] again, my career was in sales.

[00:20:01] I am just an evangelist as a personality type. Like if you ask me what I'm wearing, I'm like, oh my gosh, I got it from Ari. Did you know that they make athleisure wear now? You should totally get it. Feel how soft this is, just feel it. Um, like that's just who I am as a person. So. I love being an affiliate, and I'll disclose that.

[00:20:21] It's an affiliate link and I'll say, I don't care if you buy ThriveCart. I don't care if you go buy this jumper from Airie without my affiliate. I wish I were an affiliate for Airie, but I don't care. I don't care if you use my affiliate link or not. This is something that I love and I recommend, and I use myself.

[00:20:38] So that's my personal rule on affiliates is that I'm not going to tell people to buy something that I don't use or have not seen firsthand somebody use and absolutely love. So, um, just as a clarifier, 'cause I know sometimes affiliates can feel a little icky for people, 

[00:20:56] Rene: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:20:56] Samantha: um, that they're like, I don't wanna make money off of it.

[00:20:59] I just want you to use what works for you. And it's like, I think personally, I think you can do both.

[00:21:03] Rene: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Especially if it's stuff that you love. Like I, I know we mentioned like a lot of people love ThriveCart and they have a great affiliate program, so like that's fantastic. Very cool. Um, I wanted to ask, you mentioned bundles participating in bundles, and

[00:21:16] that's another conversation that I've, has been coming up in some of my interviews and, uh, I've had some different, you know, different thoughts in different ways.

[00:21:24] So yeah, what, what bundles maybe are you participating in? Do you try new ones? Do you repeat old ones? And what sort of things do you see from the bundle? Like, are you seeing sales, are you seeing email subscribers?

[00:21:37] You know, like anything really you wanna say about bundles?

[00:21:40] Samantha: Yeah. Um, I'll be really honest here. I am stepping away from bundles except for ones that have been very successful for me in the past. The reason being that I have so much to offer my people, and if I'm in a new bundle every other week and I as an obligation to the bundles success have to tell [00:22:00] my email list about it, I'm using up so much space that I could be using to educate them on copy.

[00:22:05] That said, there are some that have been very valuable to me. Both as a contributor to it and as somebody who has like grabbed some of the stuff in the bundle, um, that I'm gonna continue to participate in if those people continue to offer them. Um, however, as a copywriter, a lot of people will brag about vanity metrics and they do this in every area, right?

[00:22:29] Like, how many followers do you have on Instagram? Doesn't really matter if nobody's watching or buying or whatever. Um, how many? So from a copy perspective, that number is email list subscribers. Everybody loves to say how many email list subscribers they have, but if those people aren't buying from you, then they're not great subscribers.

[00:22:49] So I have gotten a lot like 2000 new subscribers in 2023, um, and I scrub my list every three months, and I typically erase hundreds of people who just opt in, get my free thing and leave. Now that can go a couple different ways. Maybe they love my thing, they just don't like emails. They end up following me on Instagram.

[00:23:10] They still have me in their minds, but I haven't seen a lot of that. Not a lot of people reaching out and telling me that. So I think for me, I and I have great funnels, I have great copy in my funnels. I've refined it. I've looked at the data. Um, it's just a lot of people who are buying less. So it's a lot harder for me to look at the success rate of my funnels and say, well, every person of every person that opts in X amount are gonna do this.

[00:23:38] X amount are gonna do that when the buying behavior is that those people are looking for free things. So all of that to say, I've probably had about 3,000-4,000 people join my list in the last year, only 2000 have stuck around and less than a hundred [00:24:00] have ended up buying from bundles. And typically the buy is that $19

[00:24:08] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:24:09] Samantha: um, the abandoned cart email sequence.

[00:24:12] So for me, I, like I said, I'm taking a step back, but the ones that I'm in, I'm going to take a more active role in. I um, and being more involved. So a lot of times they have a live component or a Facebook group component and showing my face and being able to allocate my time into that a little bit more so that I'm just a more productive member and also to gain that brand recognition.

[00:24:35] But all in all, I think. What I've been calling the bundle boom for the last couple years is, um, I think it's coming to an end and therefore changing because I think a lot of people are having similar results to me, where we're gathering a lot of vanity metrics and not a lot of high quality leads into our top of funnel.

[00:24:57] Rene: Right. And I think that like with the bundle, so maybe it's maybe people's first awareness of you. So I think it takes a lot longer to kind of build that trust. With the bundle, if people are buying the bundle and they're like, okay, I'm gonna sign up for this and this and this, also, I feel like it's like the overwhelm with that too. Like I can't, like how many new people can I get to know that when I have, you know, purchased the bundle myself?

[00:25:21] So, yeah.

[00:25:22] Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I agree a hundred percent. And like I have had, I felt like it was really an uphill battle on Pinterest. I put my templates and my guides on Pinterest. So templates are paid, the guides are free. They lead to the templates. Um, I had about the same top line of sales on from Pinterest than I did from bundles this year, but I spent way less time on Pinterest.

[00:25:51] Rene: Yeah.

[00:25:51] Samantha: So neither of them do I consider to be super successful. They're, they're not driving enough revenue to like make a difference [00:26:00] really. Um, you know, a and that's part of being a business owner, is knowing which plates you can spin harder to get more revenue from. But neither of them, I mean, when we're looking at less than a thousand dollars of return on each, are, you know, something that my bookkeeper is gonna really lean into.

[00:26:19] But it is interesting to look at that where I'm like, well, Pinterest isn't generating anything. But for some reason, in my mind, I think bundles are the it because the numbers are bigger. Um, but the percentages on return is actually a lot smaller.

[00:26:33] Rene: Mm-Hmm. And the time investment, like you said, like there's not as much time investment for Pinterest. You kind of put stuff up. So are you still using Pinterest? Nobody, I haven't really had anybody on the show talk about Pinterest.

[00:26:43] So will you still use it then because of the low time investment?

[00:26:46] Samantha: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Um, there's a podcaster that I used to follow, and I'm probably gonna butcher the way that she says it, but she says that all content is water, but is it, is it a lake or is it in a toilet? And what she means by that is a toilet you flush it away. It goes away. So if you post something on Instagram for like a week, somebody's gonna see it and then it's gonna go away.

[00:27:08] Unless they go back and search your profile for it, which is rare, they're not gonna see it. But this long-term content like blogs, podcasts, um, Pinterest can continue to generate things for you later on. The other thing with all of those, because they're tied to SEO. Is people are searching for something specific.

[00:27:28] So if they're searching for affiliate email copy and they find my thing, they're downloading one thing at a time. It's not like going back to the bundle where they're downloading like 17 freebies at a time and then all of a sudden next Monday their inbox feels overwhelming so they unsubscribe to everything.

[00:27:44] Rene: Yes.

[00:27:45] Samantha: 'cause they're looking for you.

[00:27:46] They didn't just happen upon you. So it's that inbound versus outbound marketing. 

[00:27:51] Rene: Relating this to the audience, to the listeners. Not everybody has that sales background or that marketing [00:28:00] background. So how do we, I mean, you know, this educational like you are telling us, so, you know, this is great for us for learning, but like, yeah, how do we get up to speed a little bit more quickly so that we can, you know, that it doesn't take us, you know, 15 years in business to finally launch a product or whatever.

[00:28:16] Not any, any time though is fine. Like, I'm not saying you have to do it this time or that time, but you know, how can you business better, market better, you know, because we're really like, we're in it to, it's not just a hobby, right? We're in it to make sales whether one-on-one or via products or affiliates or, or a combination of all of those.

[00:28:32] Samantha: I think my answer there is like the antithesis to everything that most business coaches are going to tell you is that, um, people will tell you, you know, do it now. Do it messy.

[00:28:46] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:28:47] Samantha: Do it before you feel ready. And I agree with all of that. And listen to your body. This is the part where I get really woo, but I.

[00:28:58] My Copy on Demand membership is me looking at people's copy once a week and telling them what to improve and giving examples of what to improve so that they go do it and they do it better. So that means that I look at people's stuff and say, this is what I would do. And every single week I find myself saying, but here's the caveat, like if this doesn't feel good for you, don't say it.

[00:29:22] And that part is also so important. It's not just, oh, my coach said I needed put digital products on my website, so I put digital products on my website or everybody's doing it, so I need to do it. Or you had mentioned to me before we started recording, it seems like a lot of people have memberships now. That doesn't mean that you need a membership.

[00:29:41] I think memberships are the new courses. Like a couple years ago, and I was one of 'em. I was an Amy Porterfield girly and she's great. And I went through DCA and had a course and didn't love delivering it, and it didn't feel natural for me to be coaching, [00:30:00] quote unquote in that way. So I tell people a hundred percent of the time.

[00:30:05] You have to do what feels right. You have to write what feels right, and you have to be able to understand what is just stepping out of your comfort zone a little bit and stretching you in a good way. And what is just a hundred percent inauthentic to where you are right now. And just because you say no to something right now doesn't mean you can't say yes to it down the road.

[00:30:26] So that's not a hard answer, like as in like not a concrete answer, but that's. People can smell your reluctance a mile away. So don't send an email that you're not sure if it's gonna convert. 'cause you don't even know if people are gonna like it. And then like. You have to be ready.

[00:30:47] Rene: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that you, I'm glad you touched on that point, that yeah, there's a difference between, uh, something, something we really wanna do and something is holding us up, like some kind of fear or something. Something we just don't wanna do, because I've seen both ways. I've seen people who, yeah, their business coach, their whatever, said like, oh, you need products, or everybody has products.

[00:31:06] Don't do that. Don't like if you take anything from this podcast, like take that. Like you don't have to create a product, and products are not for everyone.

[00:31:14] But if it is something that you want to do and you are just scared or you just don't have the information or you just aren't sure, you know, that it's just an experiment.

[00:31:24] So, you know, get support, get help, whatever it is. Um, you know, a, a friend, a colleague, someone who can cheer you on or give you that valuable feedback or, you know, can teach you that tech or whatever. You know, like just knowing the difference between those two things I, I think is really important.

[00:31:40] Samantha: Mm-Hmm. And you bring up a great point too of like what, what the outside is saying versus what the inside is saying. I spoke with a group of people about a week ago and somebody said, oh, I can't wait. I just need to get my email list to a hundred first. And it's like, well, not who, who's telling you this?

[00:31:57] Rene: What? What's a hundred?

[00:31:58] Samantha: One example. [00:32:00] That's just one example. 30 people who are stoked to buy from you. I'll be honest, I stocked my email list with people with the same last name as me. I reached out to auntie and uncle and said, please.

[00:32:09] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:32:11] Samantha: Join this list. They were worthless on my list because they didn't need a course.

[00:32:17] Rene: Yes.

[00:32:18] Samantha: They, they're not even self-employed, so like they're not writing copy. At most, they're writing an out of office email, like it was not for them. A good friend of mine is a registered dietician in Colorado Springs and she has military affiliations because of her spouse.

[00:32:36] So her list is small, but it converts at a crazy high rate because she speaks directly to women in Colorado who are struggling with something health related and know that they can fix it from the inside out. Like that's a wildly small niche. She doesn't probably, I don't know what her, you know, email setup is, but she probably doesn't need to pay for anything fancy, but she can sell into these people because they trust her expertise in that niche.

[00:33:07] So if she had 2000 people that she had gotten from some random bundle, would that have benefited her?

[00:33:15] Rene: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And it's great to have like, like it's great that you know, you're close with your family or whatever, and they would be on your email list, but you're right, like they're not going to buy from you. But that doesn't mean they don't like you.

[00:33:27] Like, so that's the thing I see often too, is that like, if people who are on my list don't buy from me, that means that they don't like me or something like weird like that. They may just not need this product. They may need other products. They may not, may need other services. They may just like to read your valuable biweekly content.

[00:33:45] Samantha: Mm-Hmm.

[00:33:46] Rene: You know, don't, don't take it like personally like that, that like, oh, well, you know, these people didn't buy so, you know, this product is terrible. Or I'm terrible. You know, something I've, I've seen this sort of like, it's some kinda wacky mind game. It's like, [00:34:00] this is not how this goes. Yeah.

[00:34:02] Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. And like also, don't set yourself up for that like. 

[00:34:05] Rene: Yes. 

[00:34:06] Samantha: You're, if you're intentionally filling your list with people who don't wanna buy, then you know, maybe, maybe we do need a mindset coach.

[00:34:13] Rene: Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah, for sure. Awesome. So tell us about this course. Like, let's just, let's just touch on that really quickly then. Like, where did the course come from, and then did you just scrap it? Did you reuse the content at all for anything else or?

[00:34:26] Samantha: Um, honestly, so it was from my blogging business, so I continued to run my blogging business at the same time as my copywriting business, and a couple of things happened. One. 2020. Um, I was running a travel blog. People were not buying, um, courses on how to plan your next solo trip because I was focused around wi uh, women who wanted to travel solo.

[00:34:57] Like women who worked in corporate wanted to make the most of their PTO and travel solo. Um, yeah, so time timing was against me. Um, my heart wasn't in it because I was listening to all of these Boss Babe esque podcasts. And I mean, that is a theme, not the specific brand. Um.

[00:35:15] Rene: Yes. Mm-Hmm.

[00:35:16] Samantha: But, um, I was listening to all these podcasts and like I had mentioned, Amy Porterfield, Jenna Kutcher, et cetera, and a lot of people were going on unemployment at the time.

[00:35:25] So the name of the game in the industry, in the online business space was create a course and that's gonna help float you along until you go back to work. Um, I, I did not experience unemployment during that time, but I did experience the wave of like, just make a course. All you have to do is find a hundred people who will buy it at a hundred dollars.

[00:35:47] And that like hashtag coach math. Um, so the course was how to plan your next solo trip in two hours or less, which is what I was helping a lot of my friends [00:36:00] do pre 2020. That's what I was doing with my friends anyway. Again, I thought that I was, you know, staying close to the money in that way.

[00:36:07] Um, but it just was a terrible timing issue. It, funny enough, I just got an email like two weeks ago that somebody opted into it and paid for it, which is probably like the fifth sale of it. Ever. And I didn't even know that my teachable account was still alive. So, that was 

[00:36:25] Rene: you know. Yeah. That's awesome.

[00:36:28] Samantha: That was great news.

[00:36:29] I was like, I, but it's not worth my time to go back and update the content either, because I'm just not pursuing that business anymore.

[00:36:36] Rene: Yeah. Interesting, interesting. Do you wanna say anything else about any of the specific products or, um, future products or, you know, anything else before you give us your advice for new product creators?

[00:36:48] Samantha: So the affiliate copy pack and the inclusivity guide are the two things that I am most proud to put out there. I think they are incredible resources because when you start looking at inclusivity in your business, a lot of people come at it from a place of fear that, oh my gosh, everybody's gonna hate me.

[00:37:06] I didn't say anything right on my website, and a lot of times what people come to realize very quickly is that they're, everybody's doing their best, and that small tweaks can make you even better. And having that resource available just creates that central space for you and your team to have that conversation.

[00:37:26] And that's the best thing that's come out of the inclusivity guide is just knowing that they don't have to review their VAs edits every single time that they write something or something like that. And then the affiliate copy pack again, it's so overwhelming to say, okay, I just want other people to sell for me.

[00:37:44] Great. I bought ThriveCart. Oh no, I have to send so many emails and I have to give people swipe copy. So that's ev, like it gets very meta very quickly. Um, so those are just such complete [00:38:00] resources that I don't know of anybody else having. So I'm really just very excited about those.

[00:38:07] Rene: Yeah, I like that. And I love a, well, a template or like, here's what you should say, you know, tweak to your needs or tweak to your business language or whatever. 

[00:38:15] But like, here's a start. Like it's so much easier for people to adopt than this. Like take this big course and then figure out what the takeaways are and then go implement those in your business.

[00:38:27] Like, it's just so much more work where like guides and templates and emails like are just like, boom, boom, like, you know, obviously it's, it does take some time, but I think it gives people, uh, a quicker win, which is good for them and good for you because they're like, oh, Sam gave me a really quick win. 

[00:38:44] I also need a abandoned card email sequence. I'm gonna go back to her, or I need Copy on Demand. We didn't talk about it. Oh no. Do you wanna talk about it real quickly?

[00:38:53] Samantha: Yeah, I would love to, and I can transition from the templates to Copy on demand so easily because I recently had a one-on-one with somebody that's in Copy on Demand, and she said she's a designer. She designs on Squarespace. And her coach is specifically a business coach for designers. So very niche, and she wanted to redo her services page.

[00:39:15] Her coach had a resource, she did it from a template, and she was like, this just feels really wordy and it doesn't feel like me and et cetera, et cetera. So we looked at it and I told her, and I'll say this publicly, that copy from a template is very rarely going to be the best copy that you can possibly write.

[00:39:35] However, it is going to be copy that is written better than if you had gone it alone. So it, it accomplishes this like crushing the blank page syndrome. So what Copy on Demand does is then gives you that additional sounding board. So, um, that same person then came to me after she finished her services page and said, well, I want to have three separate sales pages for the three different services I offer.

[00:39:58] Web design, web [00:40:00] strategy, and product three. So she came to me and said, what needs to go on each of these pages? So we were able to outline, and I just did it up in a Google Doc of you need to start with X, then talk about Y, then talk about Z. Here's some examples. So it gets rid of her blank page syndrome, and she knows not only that she's writing words, but that those words are serving a distinct purpose.

[00:40:24] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:40:25] Samantha: And that they're gonna resonate with her people. Then we'll go back and probably look at it and do a once over for editing. But what I love seeing is that week after week, people need fewer and fewer recommendations in their copy because they are getting better and better at writing with purpose, and they see why.

[00:40:43] So I'm not just saying. Here's what I would write. So here's what I would write and why. Here's a little fun fact about sales psychology. This is a trend that I've been seeing in the industry because I write for dozens of launches a year and I've seen what's successful and what's not. Um, or just that like eagle eye view, this I could have used it because I've made an opt-in page for myself a couple weeks ago, and nowhere in the emails or on the page did I have the time of the webinar.

[00:41:12] Rene: Oh no.

[00:41:12] Mm-Hmm. 

[00:41:13] Samantha: I'm a copywriter.

[00:41:14] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:41:15] Samantha: So having that extra set of eyes for less than $300 a month is so stinking helpful for a business owner. And also you get that somebody in your corner, you get that mindset person, you get that person that's gonna be cheering you on. I share my people's stuff all the time. Um, but really at its core, Copy on Demand is my eyes on your copy once a week.

[00:41:41] It's a monthly thing. Um, I also have an annual option, um, and people really, really love it. I've had a lot of people tell me that it's the most impactful business purchase that they make all year.

[00:41:55] Rene: Nice. Nice. That's awesome. And I love that it's an extension of like what you've been doing, you know, [00:42:00] your services, your products, you know, this next step that people are needing more. I think a lot of times with products, you know, people buy the products, but they need, they need something else. They have questions about it or they, they just need more, you know, so that's a great way to offer them more.

[00:42:14] So very cool. I

[00:42:15] Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate you saying that it was something that is an extension of what I'm already doing because so often we see, um, I'm gonna pick on one specific industry right now. And that's, you know, just the general like business coach. There's a lot of business coaches, not all of them, who ran one successful business that being their own and then

[00:42:38] Segued into helping other people run their businesses. And so we lose context in that. So that's one thing that really does set me apart and that I think is important just when you're shopping for a service provider, no matter what industry is to look at, do they also do this thing successfully or are they just going to tell me how to do it successfully?

[00:42:58] Because I love, 'cause people have asked, oh, are you gonna transition to not doing done for you copy anymore? And I don't think I would feel good about . helping people write their copy if I wasn't also writing 

[00:43:10] Rene: Yeah. 

[00:43:10] Samantha: done for you copy. 

[00:43:11] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:43:12] Yeah, 

[00:43:12] Samantha: So there's my spicy hot take for the end of our show.

[00:43:16] Rene: I like it. Yes. I like it. Yeah. So do you wanna tell us, um, maybe two to three things that you recommend? So somebody has not created any products yet and they've been wanting to, and what are some things that you might advise that they do or don't do?

[00:43:28] Samantha: Yeah, sure. The first is to ask your people. I say this for almost any area of writing your copy, ask your people. Um, I would not have continued with my motivation on creating those Black Friday emails if people had been like, nah, I'm good.

[00:43:51] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:43:52] Samantha: Um. So ask your people and ask 'em what they want, because also if they don't want what you think you're going to offer [00:44:00] or they don't, you know, a lot of people will pre-sell, which I think is great advice as well.

[00:44:04] Um, but if people don't want it, they may lead you to the next thing. Um, or you can come back and ask a second question. Hey, everybody that answered no to this question real quick, what would help you with your Black Friday sale, or what copy are you writing right now? In my case. Um, so one, ask your audience. Two.

[00:44:23] Done is better than perfect. And I say that with the asterisk of what you deliver your client should be as close to perfect as you can possibly get it right now. You can always send them like, Hey guys, everybody asked for this and so I added it on for free. You get access to it 'cause you already bought it.

[00:44:36] You can do that later. What I mean by done is better than perfect is that for me, I blasted my email list and said respond. And I sent manual um, invoices. Because for me, I had the template done and I knew it was darn good, but for me to get it perfect and get that shop created was gonna take, again, I'm not tech savvy.

[00:44:59] I didn't have my right hand woman on at the time. I . So that part, I just got it done. I got it done, I put it out there and it, it was, it ended up working out really lovely. Um, so those are probably my two core pieces of advice. Yeah.

[00:45:17] Rene: Awesome. Yay. I love those. Yes. Very cool. Uh, so do you wanna tell us maybe where people can find you online, social media, email is, website, whatever it is.

[00:45:25] Samantha: Yeah, sure thing. Um, on my website and I will, um, have you put the link in the show notes, but it's nomadcopyagency.com. If you click in the upper right hand corner, there's a link for copy shop and under there there's a ton of my free resources and guides. So that's the best way to get on my email list.

[00:45:42] I don't just have a signup. Um.

[00:45:44] Rene: Mm-Hmm.

[00:45:45] Samantha: But hey, you might as well get something cool in the process. And then on Instagram, I'm at nomad.copy.

[00:45:52] Rene: Awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Well, thank you so much for being here today. I love your story and I love your philosophy too. I always like when somebody comes on the show and um, [00:46:00] you know, we kind of share like a similar philosophy. I think that's also good for the audience too. So, uh, thank you so much for your time.

[00:46:06] Samantha: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:46:08] Rene: Hey, thanks for listening. I'd love to continue the conversation in your inbox. Email SUBSCRIBE to hey at yfdp.show or sign up in the show notes to get bi monthly emails about how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. Can't wait to see you there.