Brionna: 0:00

I know a lot of times there is this idea that like, you don't wanna make something until you have an audience to sell it. And I am a big fan of that. And there are just some things that you know, that like the audience will come and it can be also nice instead of always trying to like kind of frantically scramble to meet the needs of your audience. To be prepared. And so this was a course that I created where I was like, yeah, I'm still like in audience building phases where like, I'm gonna launch this thing and I don't expect like tens of twenties of hundreds of people to like buy it right away. But I do know that it will continue to be useful as I like, grow my audience as like a great lead in and introduction to my work. My experience with this course has been the most sales have come from people who are not ready for my more in depth services. But then, and I'll be like, okay, yeah, no problem. In the meantime, like I do have this contracts foundations course, if you're interested, and they will often buy it.

Rene: 1:13

Hey everyone. Welcome to Your First Digital Product, a show that helps maxed out service providers create their first digital product so they can gain an additional income stream, grow their impact without increasing one on one work, and experience more time freedom. On the show, I talk to business owners who have launched digital products and dig deep into how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. I'm your host Rene Morozowich. Let's go! Hey everybody. Today I am here with Brionna Ned. And Brionna is The Everyday Lawyer, focused on teaching freelancers and solopreneurs, the foundations of business law so they can make better and more confident decisions in their work. Hey, how are you?

Brionna: 1:53

Hey there. I'm good. Thank you so much for having me.

Rene: 1:56

Yeah. Thanks for coming on. I'm excited to hear about your products. Uh, but why don't you tell everybody a little bit about you first.

Brionna: 2:02

Sure. Yeah. Um, so as you said, I'm The Everyday Lawyer and my focus or my mission is really to bring universal legalese fluency to the masses. Um, I have been an entrepreneur now for, I don't know, maybe the past five or six-ish years. I started out with a corporate wellbeing company that turned into like a guidance. Um, or coaching business for a little while. And as I got more and more involved into the world of entrepreneurship, something that I encountered a lot was like fellow entrepreneurs reaching out to me in a panic because some sort of business deal had gone sideways. Or they were nervous because something about a business deal they had wasn't. You know, going exactly right. And they didn't know how to communicate it without things sort of blowing up. And so I became in my own community of entrepreneurs this resource, because I had a background in corporate law working at big law firms, and then later, as in house counsel, um, I became this resource for people to, you know, like review and translate contracts. Like look at like ti, like small kind of. Um, business issues that come up like in the everyday lo life of like an entrepreneur. And so I got the idea to launch The Everyday Lawyer after I got yet another one of these reach outs from a friend who was nearly in tears, very worried about breaking a potential contract and like losing, you know, their house, their home, their dog, their. Kids kind of thing. You know, that kind of like panic that the law can set in, um, for a lot of people. And to me, what I started to see was like, there was really a knowledge, um, access problem because accessing knowledge to how the law works, how, like, how to understand it, um, and how to essentially like navigate it and make it work for you. Is, you know, there's a high cost of entry, quite literally because lawyers are expensive and the other avenue law school is also expensive. Like there's a lot of knowledge behind a very large paywall that the average entrepreneur cannot afford. And then the second issue is like. Legal jargon, like actually taking the time to kind of break down what all of that like legalese really means is another access issue, right? Because legal stuff is never just written in plain language. It's written in these like here to four he forth like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like clauses that are just like grammatically incorrect and nonsensical. So, um, I really am on a mission to change all that and make the law just like. More accessible, more friendly to people so that when they encounter a legal issue in their work, they don't feel so like intimidated by it, if that makes sense. Um, can, can actually make more confident decisions around, you know, the legal issues in their work, which I think ultimately helps you create a more like sustainable and successful business. So that's what I'm doing in a nutshell.

Rene: 5:19

Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's great because yeah, that legal stuff is really scary 'cause you don't know what it says, so you're not sure if you're following what it says or not. And then, yeah, God forbid, like something come up and somebody asks you about your contract or you know, they have a contract and like, yes, I, I am a hundred percent with you. I don't get it. It's scary for entrepreneurs. So that's, it's, it's good. It's good that you have identified this in people and, and you do have a course about. The law, however, that's not your first product, so we'll get to that. But do you wanna tell us about your first product and what it was and who it was for? Yeah.

Brionna: 5:57

When I was, I had co-founded a corporate wellbeing company that was all about helping, um, to manage chronic stress in the workplace because chronic stress is like the root of burnout, and it's also the number one cause of like the top 10 fatal diseases in the world. And so we got set out this really ambitious goal to like, what does it look like to actually eradicate chronic stress and what does it look like to attack that issue, like inside of the workplace? And so we created like essentially a drip kind of stress education course where it was like an email went out once every week for seven-ish weeks, and it would include a video and then it would include a worksheet to work through where you like actually learned about the science of stress and learned how to identify like where stress is showing up in your life and like kind of what to do about it. It was essentially like a beginner's course on stress management for people who work just to. Um, essentially like wake them up to what was happening sort of in the background programming in their like everyday life.

Rene: 7:13

That's very interesting that you say wake them up to it because yeah, I think that people don't always even know that, you know, the cause of, you know, what's happening is actually from that, that's actually chronic stress. So like that is super interesting to me. So who, who, was it for? Like did you sell it to corporations? Did you sell it to individual

Brionna: 7:33

Yeah, we

Rene: 7:33

I guess how, how did it go? You

Brionna: 7:35

Yeah, we sold it to corporations, so oftentimes we would sell it to teams. The way we originally did, it was a series of live workshops. And then we started to digitize it and turn it into more of a course. So very short form videos, you know, no more than 15 minutes of video content per week with like a worksheet grouped with it that you could like, go through the activity and identify the areas that we talked about for yourself. Um, and then we would have, you know, at the end of the seven weeks. We would have a break week in the middle to kind of touch base, see where people wore, what they had learned, what adjustments that they wanted to make. And then we would have essentially like a closeout at the end, um, where we would facilitate a conversation on like, okay, now that you know these things about yourself and what you've shared with your teammates, what are potentially some shifts that you could make as a team? And we essentially use that course as an in. For, um, pitching like a larger consulting contract with that team or company. So it would be the lead in, and then we would like pitch our consulting services on like people management and HR related things.

Rene: 8:53

Yeah, I love that. I love two things specifically about that. That last part where the product was a lead in to a service. So I think that's a great, you know, positioning for digital products and the other one was that you ran it as live workshops first. Did you get feedback then on exactly what to put into the email course because you did it live like that? Yeah. Do you wanna talk about that at all?

Brionna: 9:19

Yeah, I mean I think that I always, the way I've always approached digital products, 'cause I've had more since then, um, when I had my own like coaching practice, I always approach them as like live workshops first because they're great testing ground. You can learn a lot of information really quickly. Because you're facilitating you can see in real time what resonates with people. And you know, it does, it's not like you have to do it a bunch of times. You can do a live workshop two, maybe three times and have a pretty, a pretty good idea of like what a digitized course needs to include and what it can leave out. Um, and it also, and we can talk about that, about this later with the legal course, the contracts course I created, it also creates ideas for like, okay, if you wanted to supplement a course for people who have taken it. And like offer little supplement offerings here and there. Live workshops give you a really good idea of like, okay, what's the meat and bones of the digital course? And then maybe where are ideas where I can like supplement things on later?

Rene: 10:28

Yeah, because you can always explain more, but going into it saying like, here's everything you ever need to know about stress, like, probably is stressful and overwhelming. So, you know, like, I like that. Here's really what you need, but then we can get into other things, um, you know, as needed. They could be additional products, they could be bonuses, they could be any number of things, um, to, to be able to offer people more if you wanted to, but you do. It doesn't have to be included in that main or first offering.

Brionna: 10:57

Mm-Hmm.

Rene: 10:57

I love also that you said about the videos being under 15 minutes and not that that's like hard and fast rule. Like, you know, don't take away from this podcast like, Hey, Rene said if I have videos, they have to be under 15 minutes. No. I just like the idea that the information doesn't just go on forever. You're, because you have a timeframe that you set for yourself. You're, you're forced to get the, the most important information in there without overwhelming people, you know, by going on and on. So I like that. And I also like that you have the worksheets too, and the email, like it all kind of goes together. I was just talking with a friend today about how people take in information and some people are really verbal and some people are not. Like they need written information. So whenever you're creating something to educate someone, having different forms of information because you don't know from one person to the next in your audience what you know, how they're best going to consume that. So I love all that.

Brionna: 11:58

Yeah, I, I think it makes a huge difference. Like some people will just like totally get the visual, but other people need to be kind of walked through the process step by step. Um, and so being able to essentially like meet people where they are, I think makes like a very strong, um, you know, it just makes a really strong and effective digital product. It doesn't have to be like some digital products. I still have courses that are like, that I bought. That I'll revisit from time to time, but I've never finished because there's just so much material that you're, you're just like, oh my God, I'm never gonna get through this. And what I also noticed about those is that like, implementation is hard. And so, um. I had a teacher who's a marketer. Um, she's Australian, Dani Gardner, and she talks a lot about, like, she preaches this thing called tiny courses. Um, and having, you know, really effective, simplified, discerned down information is actually high value. Um, and so that's sort of where I learned that mentality and how I try to create digital products, especially if they're like self-led video courses of like, what's the way to like discern this down, make this as simple as possible because that is high value.

Rene: 13:29

Right. Yeah, for sure. Because we have the internet. You know, we're not in an information drought, like we can go look anything up anytime. The hard part is sifting through it all. So if you create a course that's basically just the internet, that's just not going to be very easy. Um. I've had some people on the podcast talk about revisions to their products and you know, I think sometimes we think about revisions to our product and like adding like, oh, you know, I'd love to add this module or whatever, but some people think about revisions and what can I take away from this product to get people to the destination faster? To get people to the solution faster? And I love that because that is so much more powerful. Like, yes, it's lovely that you wanna offer me everything, but like, that's too overwhelming for me. So if you offer something of value for a problem that's important to me and gets me there faster and actually gets me there, like that's, you know, a fan for life. Like, that's amazing.

Brionna: 14:27

Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Rene: 14:29

So I love that. Awesome. So that's a great product. I love that. Um, do you wanna talk about your current product or any products in between or you pick?

Brionna: 14:38

Um, we can talk about the current one. Yeah. All the other in-between ones are no longer available. My current product is just a contracts foundations course. So it came out of the world of, you know, what I started my business with. It's since expanded, right. But what I started with was just a flat rate, flat rate contract review service because people didn't understand what was in the contracts that they were reviewing and like signing them anyway. And then when there was a problem, like they would get really scared because they didn't understand the contract. And so, um. And that to me, right, is like contracts can be so onerous and have a lot of like really scary language in it. And so that became like my focus. I was like, I'm just gonna start with contracts because that is the like consistent thread I see across the field. So I had that service and I kept creating what I call, like legal reference guide for contracts. People would submit a contract, I'd create essentially like a study guide to the contract. Like, this means this, this is a problem for you because. Um, here's how to navigate that problem. You could try negotiating it this way. You could try negotiating it this way, that way, blah, blah, blah, blah. I did, I don't know, 10, 20 of those, and I was like, okay, now people are starting to ask me do I have a contract template. And I don't love contract templates. Um, because like it's, again, it's the same legal access issue where someone just like gives you a template and is like, you are good to go. But like if there's a template without an explanation to it, then like what is the point of the template? Um, and when I researched the template market, I found that there were a lot of lawyers selling what I found to be like shockingly high priced templates.

Rene: 16:43

Hmm.

Brionna: 16:44

Without an explanation, right? Like I, I, I spent a couple hours on the internet looking and I really only found one resource where it was like there was a template with an explanation involved. And everything else was just like, here you go. Good luck to you. And that's where I got the idea to create a contracts foundations course that includes a template. A very basic like, uh, services agreement for any sort of small business owner and I started with freelance writers and like marketers in mind because that's who was asking me constantly for a template for their services. Um, and so I just created this contract foundations course to reorient people to what the purpose of contracts is, what you can expect to find in a typical business contract. And then introduce them section by section to their template contract. Like, what, here's a section, this is what it means. Here's this section, this is what it means and this is why it's included. And then I did, I did a like, um, a bonus section on like things that aren't in this contract that you might expect to see and why I didn't include them. So I teach, like my philosophy around contracts is like. They are not here to prevent something bad from happening. That is not the purpose of a contract. Contracts will never save you from a bad actor. Like that is why if you pay anything at all, pay attention to anything at all in the law, there are always all of these like cha trade secret and like non-compete litigation, non-solicitation like lawsuits running amuck, right? Because all of those like terms live in employment contracts and what do people do? They break them anyway because they want to, because they wanna go do this job or they wanna go start this company. And your little like very like trumped up and scary, like non-compete or non-solicitation clause or confidentiality clause is not gonna stop them from doing what they wanna do. And so the first thing I do is try to reorient people's like brains around the purpose of a contract is to define a working relationship. It's never going to save you from something bad happening.

Rene: 19:08

Well, I wish it did, but okay.

Brionna: 19:10

Right. But like I, I think, you know, then when we get clear about that, it helps us get to the root cause of the problem. It's not the contract, it's the person you're contracting with. And so often what I encounter when people really find themselves, you know, between a rock and a hard place and contracting is like they knew. They had a feeling, they had an instinct about this person. They saw red flags, but because lawyers have done just such a bad job of telling people a contract will protect you from something bad happening, they'll be like, well, the contract will save me if this person is in fact a bad actor. The contract never saves you if, if in fact the person is a bad actor. And this is a really big hurdle for people to get over. So that's how I start. I'm like, that is my philosophy of contracts. We are here to define a working relationship. And so what I am teaching you is how to define the relationship for things to go well. And when you get to the point where you inevitably, you know, one or both parties inevitably outgrow the contract, how can you go your separate ways? Without all the drama, can we just go our separate ways? Like pretty easily. So you're not gonna find the scary language, you're not gonna find the like, you know, deterrent language. I have a whole separate, you know, Google Doc with like example terms, if that's what you, you decide you wanna put in your contract, right? Like. I'm not in control, I'm just giving you options. Um, and so I have a separate Google Doc where it's like you can go and see sample clauses of some of the more common terms that are in there, that are there to quote unquote be deterrent. You're just not gonna find it in the template that I have created for you. And so that's how the course works, is I introduce you to the philosophy and then I take you through the template. A section by section, and I tell you what's different about, you know, the way that I write contracts versus the way maybe another lawyer might write a contract, which is that like I am trying to write this contract for the business deal to go well and the working relationship to be successful. I'm not writing it with, you know, the something bad happening in mind.

Rene: 21:48

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And What I'm taking away from this, and maybe not the primary thing, but um, if there's a red flag, don't work with that person.

Brionna: 21:58

Yes, So, you know, my philosophy is like. It is, it's actually your responsibility to vet the business deal and the person behind the business that you're gonna, you know, work or collaborate with. It's not the contract's responsibility to handle it on the backend, and I think that's where we really mess up in business. Uh, generally and why we sometimes hear like these horror stories. So, um, that contracts foundations course is really meant to introduce people to this new potential philosophy and way to think about contracts, that, to me anyway, immediately makes them less scary and makes the law less scary to business owners, right? Like we have to, if I'm not able to make that shift for you, like I am not really doing my job. So that's also what the contracts foundations course is about, is shifting some of that fear into confidence. And then building the confidence by teaching you like, this is what this means. When you encounter terms like this, maybe from larger corporations, like these are common terms that are not currently in your contract, but large corporations like them. Here's why. Here's why they like them. Here's why they like to include them in contracts, and here's what to do about them. Um, so essentially it's like if the out, if there was an outline of the course, it would be like my philosophy on contracts. Introduce you to the template that you can use and customize for your own company, and then teach you what each section of the template means. Talk about things you might have expected to be in the contract that are like deterrent terms that I didn't put it in there and why, but where you can find examples if you want them. And then lastly, talk about terms that are common to see from larger corporations, why they like to include them and how to negotiate them. And that's the

Rene: 24:06

Like how to navigate. Okay. Nice. Yeah, I like that. So I have a lot of questions. So what really is the I don't wanna say like the pain point, but like what is the impetus for someone to purchase the course? Like, so you have the audience identified and, and you kind of, you know, you have it down with like, yeah, we all don't understand contracts, but like, what is like, as a service provider, what is the thing that happens or is happening or has happened to make one think like, oh, you know what, I'm gonna buy this course. I really need this course. Like, does that make sense?

Brionna: 24:42

Yes. I think the single line that has, um, probably sold this course most to people is like, uh, we're not faking it till we make it with contracts. Like we're just not doing it.

Rene: 24:56

Hmm.

Brionna: 24:57

Um. Every time I say it, people are like, Ooh, I've been called out.

Rene: 25:03

Yeah, right. Exactly. Like, ooh, not me.

Brionna: 25:07

Um, everyone kind of like gets caught, you know, with their hands in the cookie jar on that one, and they're like, oh, shoot. And I'm like, if you are faking it till you're making it to make it with contracts in your business, like, I invite you to take this course and stop pretending like you know what you're signing. This is not okay.

Rene: 25:30

Right.

Brionna: 25:30

Even if it

Rene: 25:31

And I think,

Brionna: 25:32

to bite you in the butt yet. I was like, it's just not responsible as a business owner, you have got to know what you're signing. Signing like officially, we're not doing this anymore.

Rene: 25:44

Mm-Hmm. Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think as like business owners, especially this type of business owner, you know, you, you start where you are, you do the best you can, you know, that kind of thing, but you know, as you're going along, like you should continue to get better. So, you know, if you don't take this right away because maybe you weren't aware of it or whatever, like, you know, at a certain point like, you should be doing this because yes, you should feel confident and you shouldn't just be like, oh, well I have this contract that somebody gave me or you know, I bought, or whatever. Like, here it is, fingers crossed, like, you know, you should be learning more and doing business well, and I think that's part of doing business well.

Brionna: 26:25

Yeah, and I, you know, if you, if your business is service-based, you are dealing with contracts like full stop.

Rene: 26:32

Mm-Hmm. Yes. Yes, you should be. And if you're not, that's a different conversation. Yeah.

Brionna: 26:38

Um, exactly. And so it's like, that is the number one thing to me. Like if you're service based, your business needs contracts, period. Um, and that means you need to know, have a basic understanding of what's in contracts and what they need. That's it. There's nothing, there's nothing kind of like super flashy about it. It's just a very practical, it's a just a really practical fact, like, we are not doing this anymore. It's not acceptable. And I have made this resource accessible. You know, it's $99, I frequently put it on sale. Um, so you can often get it cheaper than that. So, yeah.

Rene: 27:21

Yeah, I kind of feel that way about certain things like, you know, a will. You should just have a will, you know, power of attorney. Like you should just, just have those documents. Just if you don't have them, just stop what you're doing and go get those documents. Especially if you have dependents. Like there's no excuse to just continue to wait for that kind of stuff. Like just. Just do it. So like there are certain, it's like adulting, right? This is adulting. So we're calling people out here who listening.

Brionna: 27:48

Right. It's like adulting in your business. This is.

Rene: 27:51

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes. I love it. Okay, so other questions I have. Um, so you, you know, you have the idea, you're like, okay, people don't understand they need a course. I'm gonna sit down and make a course. Like, did you have any problems? Did it take a long time? Was it just like, I know what I'm doing, I've done this before. I'm just gonna knock this out. Like what can you tell us about the creation process, I guess.

Brionna: 28:14

So I had the benefit of having another organization approach me to create a contract course for them, a contract foundations course for them. I was already thinking about creating one, but then they were gonna, were like, we're gonna pay you to create one. Like, can you, you know, scope it out and tell us costs? So, you know, I did the whole like, make a proposal do and send them costs. And then they ghosted the conversation and I was like, well, I have this course outline.

Rene: 28:47

Nice.

Brionna: 28:48

And I was thinking about doing this anyway because just I'm seeing that people really are struggling to like understand contract basics and so I'm just gonna make this thing. Um.

Rene: 29:00

Mm-Hmm.

Brionna: 29:01

And I do wanna say here for people that are listening, which is that I know a lot of times there is this idea that like, you don't wanna make something until you have an audience to sell it. And I am a big fan of that. And there are just some things that you know, that like the audience will come and it can be also nice instead of always trying to like kind of frantically scramble to meet the needs of your audience. To be prepared. And so this was a course that I created where I was like, yeah, I'm still like in audience building phases where like, I'm gonna launch this thing and I don't expect like tens of twenties of hundreds of people to like buy it right away. But I do know that it will continue to be useful as I like, grow my audience as like a great lead in and introduction to my work, and also really valuable to people who are just trying to understand, get a basic understanding of how contracts work. Um, so I do think that there is something to also just like having something that, you know, for a fact people are gonna need, um, prepared. Um, so that, you know, a lot of, I've, I've had my experience with this course has been the most sales have come from people who are not ready for my more in depth services. But then, and I'll be like, okay, yeah, no problem. In the meantime, like I do have this contracts foundations course, if you're interested, and they will often buy it.

Rene: 30:37

Yes, all the things. You could be the host of this podcast. This is every single thing I say every episode. Okay. Let's see if we can go back through them. Um, the audience thing is interesting. Yes. I often say like you have to have somebody to sell it to, but you know, we kind of discount the concept. This concept of like SEO where you have a solution to a problem that other people out there are searching for. You just may not know them. So yes, people, it, it can draw people in. So that is an excellent point, um, that you know people and you know, your philosophy that like, and I just, I just did an interview right before this. Um, it, that's a huge thing. People are like, if I don't make X sales in X amount of time, which is like a really tiny amount of like a day or like two days or a week or whatever, they're like, oh, it's terrible if it failed. Like, no, that's not the thing. Like you created it so that it can last. So that you can offer it over time. So like, that's the perfect way to look at a product like this. So good there, good there. I was actually going to ask this about the positioning of the product in terms of your services. So it is great to be able to offer that to people who maybe can't afford you yet. So yeah. Do you wanna talk a little bit more about that, how it it fits into your services? Like if people buy that, could they still work with you later? And if so, like what do their businesses look like and do they have to go through a change then? To be able to work with you? Like how, how did the two, the product and the services relate?

Brionna: 32:05

So basically the way I've structured things is like. I try to give you tools for that are lower costs where like if you are a, I want to figure it out myself on my own time person, you can do that, right? Without me. Here's the tool, here's the self-led course. Like, have a great time. Um, my services are about like, if you would like some reassurance, if you'd like me to sort of like create the plan for you or do the thing for you. That's what my services are, right? So there's this contract foundation course that comes with a template contract that I literally tell you how to customize. You can do that, or if you don't wanna do that, you can also hire me to write your customized contracts for your business as well. And all, all my services are flat rate, so I have had people take my contracts foundations course. And do a split, right? Like maybe for like the easier agreement, they'll do the template, but for stuff that they're not as sure about or like maybe struggling with, they'll hire me to do the contract drafting service. What most often happens is when people are first setting up their business and they just like have a ton of questions, they will take the contract foundations course as like a confidence marker. Like, okay, I at least have this basic legal thing down. And then they will also then book a legal strategy session with me for, and what I talk about in those is like usually you're at some sort of crossroads legally in your business, whether you're just starting out or like more seasoned, you're at a crossroads. And we talk through, like I just talk through all the legal foundations in your business like. What's up to snuff? Maybe what needs to be like reconsidered? And then I create an action plan for you. So a lot of times people will like do the contract foundations course, and then they'll also wanna do a legal strategy session, or people will do a contract drafting service. And then they'll also wanna do a legal strategy session. So like the services kind, they're not designed to build on each other, but they're complimentary to each other.

Rene: 34:28

I love that everybody does it a different way. Some lead in, some are for two totally separate groups of people, like the complimentary like that is nice. And then you can just let your customers know like, Hey, if you bought this product, you, you may need these services. Or Hey, these are my services. Oh, you're not ready. Here's the product. Like there you can have conversations and you have offerings. Not like you have a thousand offerings and people are trying to wade through everything you have, but you're meeting, like you said, meeting people where they are in their businesses and then, you know, you can serve more people. And especially with the product, you know, it's not a one-on-one, so it's, you know, disconnected from your time. So many people can take it and that's great.

Brionna: 35:06

Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the big things is like. My, you know, my own personal value system requires me to tell people to be cost conscious, right in setting up their business. Um, and so, you know, I'm like, if you can't afford this, like then start with this and do the best you can. Right? There's, there's room for you in, you know, this contract foundations course, and with this template there's room for you to like not get it exactly right and still have it be effective. Um, and that matters when like you are, you know, just starting out and like really trying to like pinch pennies, but also like bridge the like very big information gap that is like starting a business. That first like hill that you have to climb is pretty steep. Um. And getting the information you need can be expensive. So I try to be really cost conscious of like, okay, does it make sense for you right now to like, have, pay for me to draft you these contracts, you know, for this amount of money? Or does it make sense for you to just start with like, getting this foundation under your belt, getting, having access to a template that you can like use and kind of work with, and then maybe we could do the customized stuff later. Um, one thing I wanna add for people who are thinking about digital courses is, like you said something earlier about like wanting to get like a lot of people to buy the course in a short amount of time. And I think that comes from like usually platforms people are using to host these digital courses can be like expensive. And so people are trying to like get that cost covered. And one of the strategies that I took to sort of take the pressure off in that regard was I use a platform where you can host a one course for free. Um, and so I'm like, I'll just keep one course and once I get an audience where I'm like very comfortably paying, you know, the monthly fee that would entitle me to have more courses, then I will, you know, expand these like digital products into more. But at the moment it's not costing me anything. I'm not like losing money because I have this digital product. And I think so often people can put themselves in a situation where they're losing money with a digital product. And that's like where the frustration um, can come from where they're like, oh, I'm doing something wrong, or I should have had this audience first, or whatever. And that pressure doesn't exist if you just like, choose the free option. Yes. It's more limited. Maybe the course isn't gonna be like as beautiful or whatever the heck you want it to be. Like maybe it's not 100% perfect, but it's also not costing you anything as you like test out what works and what doesn't and like continue to build like the audience for it.

Rene: 38:17

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Being fiscally responsible, I think, and I'm hearing that more and more from guests on the show. Like, you know, as I, this is the third season and you know, it seems like more people are bringing that up. And offering products at lower prices so that they can serve the people who can't afford them. Um, you know, and, and still nurture them and, and keep in contact and, and maybe they will purchase their services, you know, at some point, but maybe not, and that's fine. Um, but it's important to more people it seems. Or maybe I, I am just meeting these people now, um, to have an offering for, for people who can't afford it early on in their business or whatever. And I like that. Um, and also I did have. Yeah, I had an episode recently talking about sales platforms and talked about that specific thing where, you know, look at what you're already using. Can anything handle this because you're maybe already paying for it, uh, or you already know how to use it. A lot of people go out and like, you know, a hundred dollars a month on Thinkific or whatever. Because yes, there is that additional pressure, especially for a first product. There's so much pressure then to sell and sell a lot and you might not have the audience, you might just, you know, be figuring it out. You're early on in your digital product journey. So, you know, yeah. Having, um, it might not be the option you stay with forever either. You know, you can switch platforms later, like, you know, there's tons and tons of options there. And I wish this would've been my experience when I first started because I was, if, if I sort my, I've been using the same invoicing software forever, and if I sort my transactions by expenses very high, if you know, in reverse order very high at the top of the list, one of my first purchases was a pack of contracts. A pack of five contracts was $2,500. I've talked about this on the show before and I used them for a hot minute and I was scared to use them'cause I didn't know what they said and I couldn't go back to that person without incurring additional costs. So I eventually did some other things with contracts, um, you know, but I wish that there would've been something like this, or maybe there was, and I didn't know about it. So that I could have had, um, a better journey, right? A, a more inexpensive journey. A more confident journey. Like, because of things that I did after that too. Like I went to like a totally free contract, which probably did nothing, you know? And then eventually I, I, I kind of worked it out. Um, but like I just, it would've been nice if it had looked different, and it's great that it can look different for other people now because there are things like this, so, yay.

Brionna: 40:55

Yes, yes. For anyone listening, like, do not buy a pack of template contracts for $2,500. Don't do it. The reason I wanna say that is like, because drafting and reviewing contracts is a basic function of any business lawyer. Like it's the most basic thing that you need to be able to do and like quite frankly, you should be able to do, like for the most needs of small business owners, you should be able to draft a contract like that, like in your sleep. And so price gouging people who are small business owners for this information, to me anyway, is like, feels in like the marrow of my bones, like wildly unethical because

Rene: 41:39

I could have done so much more with that money.

Brionna: 41:41

Exactly, exactly.

Rene: 41:43

Also I didn't understand them. If I understood them, that would have been one thing. If I, if I still use them to this day. Also, another story altogether. However, as this, as it went, ooh.

Brionna: 41:55

Yeah. Yeah. And I I just am always, I'm never not side eyeing that kind of pricing because I'm like, what is happening over there? I lean towards like, we are in price gouging territory for people who every dollar matters. And for me personally, I just like, I'm a huge advocate of building like local sustainable and small economies. And so I fundamentally am like, you are like working against this very important thing about how we build community now. Um, so as you can tell, like it makes me really mad.

Rene: 42:37

Yeah. Yeah. So do you want to share with us your advice for people who are creating their first product. So it could have been something maybe you already mentioned, or, uh, maybe not something you, you wish you would've done or you're glad you did. So people are out there, they want to create products and they're listening to this podcast and they want to know what is your advice for them to create their first product.

Brionna: 43:01

Um, I would say two things. The first thing is to keep it as simple as possible. We are not writing treatises for the internet. Like you said earlier, like the internet exists. Like if someone wants to learn one, everything there is to know about a topic they can like sit on the internet for hours, they can go to their local library. Like that is not what the purpose of a digital product or course is. And so simple. What is a simple problem that you can provide a simple solution to? And when you think you've simplified it, like take it through another round of simplification. Because, well, part of it is like the more complicated it is the more, you're gonna like hype it up in here of like, how am I ever going to accomplish this?

Rene: 43:54

Mm-Hmm.

Brionna: 43:55

It is, like the simpler it is, the easier it's gonna be to like get started and then actually finish it. Like the, my courses that exist currently is something that I outlined in a day and something that I videoed over two or three days. Um, you know, I didn't do a lot of takes. I didn't try to make a perfect product. I just tried to make a product.

Rene: 44:22

Mm-Hmm.

Brionna: 44:23

So keep it simple and then like, free yourself from the requirement of perfection. Like the, I wouldn't say like you need to go out and like buy all these fancy like cameras and whatever, again, like let the product, like make the money for those equipment purchases later if that's something that's important to you. Um, but do the bare minimum to get a course like out into the world,

Rene: 44:51

Mm-Hmm.

Brionna: 44:52

whatever that looks like. And like consistently ask yourself like. Is this a bare minimum or is there somewhere low? Like is the bare minimum lower than where I'm currently at? Like how bare can I make this and have it be effective is actually an interesting way to make a really good product.

Rene: 45:12

Yeah. Yeah. And I've had people in the show before who, one in particular, very early on, he said his course had the bells and whistles, had bells and whistles, which I thought was really funny. Because it's just so over the top. People don't need or want all of those features. So what really, what is the purpose of you spending the time and effort and money and energy putting that in there when that is not what is actually important. What is actually important is solving a problem for someone and helping them get from A to B. That's the important part.

Brionna: 45:44

Yeah, and I think, you know, increasingly with the way that search algorithms already work and the way that they are looking like they're gonna shift, um, as like AI becomes more integrated into the way people look for products online. It's always, it's going to be increasingly important that it's like problem. Solution.

Rene: 46:08

Mm-Hmm.

Brionna: 46:09

For the way people search, um, and the way people like find products and things that they need on the internet. And so the more you are like bare minimum, like less fluff, more clear about like product solution, the better it's gonna do.

Rene: 46:28

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Totally agree. Totally agree. And if not, then you did, you, you didn't spend so much time. Do you know what I mean? If you create something very small that doesn't quite work, at least you didn't spend three years on it. You know, you could pivot or you could redo it or do another one. Like, you know, you just, you haven't invested so much of yourself, like, I think is super common. It's like, I'm gonna make the greatest course, the biggest course of all time. Like, no, no, no, don't do that.

Brionna: 46:53

Yeah, exactly. I agree with.

Rene: 46:55

Here.

Brionna: 46:56

Yeah.

Rene: 46:57

Awesome. Yay. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Can you tell us where we can find you online?

Brionna: 47:03

Um, sure. So my website is theeverydaylawyer.co. Um, and then I am on Instagram and I'm on Threads and it's the underscore everyday underscore lawyer.

Rene: 47:18

Thank you so much for being on today. I think the guests are going to find this very, very valuable. Um, and I'm sure relate to it, uh, a hundred percent.

Brionna: 47:27

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me.

Rene: 47:31

Hey, thanks for listening. I'd love to continue the conversation in your inbox. Email SUBSCRIBE to hey at yfdp.show or sign up in the show notes to get bi monthly emails about how you can create, launch, and market your first digital product. Can't wait to see you there.